Online Dating Rights

International Marriage Broker Act (IMBRA) => IMBRA and Media => Topic started by: VeteransAbroad on December 14, 2006, 10:32:18 AM



Title: Pbs Television Talk Show "debate" On Imbra: Only Women On Panel
Post by: VeteransAbroad on December 14, 2006, 10:32:18 AM
Before you watch this PBS "To The Contrary" video, please make sure that you can keep your food in your stomach.

Remember that our tax money pays for PBS. American men are paying for this kind of "debate":

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8282596400667044072&q=mail+order+brides&hl=en

It is from US News & World Report Editor Bonnie Erbe who has her own blog that we were all involved in in October. But I didn't know this radfem had a job at the most conservative news magazine!    (http://)

The "opposing" side in this "debate" is the US Dept of Labor Director of the Twentieth Century Workforce Karen Czarnecki who answers the question "why aren't we stopping this (men dating foreign women)" with "Because its a free country...but"...and then she launches into a big diatribe about how we're looking for 1950s women (as if that would be so bad if it were the case and it isn't) and we don't want "strong" women.

These girls argue like 5 year olds. This video is like watching four 5 year old girls in a sandbox.

And as everyone here knows, I never call adult women "girls". But it is truly like a preschool sandbox.

That is the level of their discussion...except the moderator (who should know better because we all posted and won the debate on her website in October) is saying "why don't we stop this" with the full power of the Congress.

She means "why don't we stop this" above and beyond IMBRA itself.

She wants to ban the dating of foreign women altogether.

And the Republican US Department of Labor government official, Karen Czarnecki, only offered a quick "its a free country" before agreeing with her in principle otherwise.

There was NO DEBATE but it was billed as a debate.

This is America in 2006.


Title: Pbs Television Talk Show "debate" On Imbra: Only Women On Panel
Post by: VeteransAbroad on December 14, 2006, 10:48:58 AM
Karen Czarnecki is a government employee with the US Department of Labor, actually the Director of the Office of the 21st Century Workforce whose boss, the Labor Secretary is Elaine Chao at 202 693-6000. Elaine Chao is an immigrant. Karen wouldn't approve if an American man had married her boss. She'd say Elaine wasn't "strong" like she is.

Karen took my call because she thought this was "an emergency about my German nanny".

So she wouldn't have taken the call otherwise.

Her personal life was more important than the government business of IMBRA.

Karen: Do you know how many American jobs our country's businessmen create by operating overseas?

And she has to go on television and act like a radical feminist from San Francisco calling all American men abusers who don't happen to live in the USA and who might not date American women.

A US Government official...

Anyway, when I tell her about the 1% abuse rate, she says "I don't know about any statistics".

So I say "Then you'll agree its presumptious to go on TV spouting slander about American men when all the evidence says they're among the best citizens."

Then she said "All the literature I've been reading says otherwise".

I said "Yes. The radical feminist literature."

She then said "Listen, I am not going to debate this with you."

And this is the kind of "Republican" George Bush gives jobs to. This is a so-called "strong" woman.

This is our Director of the Office of the 21st Century Workforce at the Department of Labor.

In 2008, there is going to have to be a house cleaning. We can't work with Republicans who "are not going to debate this with you" and who actually haven't been reading any literature at all.

And Karen: Why does a Director in the US Department of Labor feel that American men to have to prove a negative?

We don't have to prove to you that we are not abusive. Get it??

Now don't expect to ever run for a cabinet position in the next government.


Title: Pbs Television Talk Show "debate" On Imbra: Only Women On Panel
Post by: VeteransAbroad on December 14, 2006, 11:20:37 AM
Karen: Do you know how many American women are abused by American men every day?

About as many as there are foreign brides abused every 5 years!


So what literature have you been reading? Stories of the rare foreign bride who is abused?

Does someone who works as a Director in the Department of Labor have political ambitions...or is this just someone who hopes to keep her job through successive Republican administrations and then go back to the business world if a Democrat gets elected?

If she is thinking of a career in politics, let other men be warned to save this video and this information on what she said. We've shown that we're an important swing vote. If organized, no Republican could win office without us.

She had a male secretary and it was amusing to hear how obsequious he was. He would be a good boy and not try to date a non-American woman.


Title: Pbs Television Talk Show "debate" On Imbra: Only Women On Panel
Post by: VeteransAbroad on December 14, 2006, 12:27:53 PM
By the way, for any married men reading this...or American men who are not now dating foreign women...when women talk on national television like our Director of the Twentieth Century Office at the Dept of Labor...they are talking about YOU.

Her attitude had nothing to do with "mail order brides". In fact, in the conversation with me, she didn't differentiate when I asked her if she thought dating French and German women was wrong.

She said what she said about American men in general.

Rewatch the above video. Karen Czarnecki, a government official whom they try to cover up as a "conservative commentator", is saying how she generally feels about US men.

And George Bush put her in office as a "conservative."

Now another thing that concerns me is that I was clearly the only American male who saw that tragic video above and actually followed up to find out that this "conservative commentator" defaming American men on television was a US Government official.

She was surprised and said the video was shot many months ago...before she turned arrogant and defended her position with the snide comment about "the literature that I've read".

And this was when I was trying to be very friendly with her after she said she didn't know of any statistics (none of the women on the television "debate" knew any statistics - it was an exercise for 5 year olds to discuss their ad populum prejudices).

We need younger guys on payroll who can keep track of the antics of radfems, especially inside the US Government.

Apparently, American men have learned to just take the abuse on the airwaves in stride.


Title: Pbs Television Talk Show "debate" On Imbra: Only Women On Panel
Post by: NewTaylor on December 14, 2006, 02:00:30 PM
[!--quoteo--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--quotec--]These girls argue like 5 year olds. This video is like watching four 5 year old girls in a sandbox.

And as everyone here knows, I never call adult women "girls". But it is truly like a preschool sandbox.

That is the level of their discussion...except the moderator (who should know better because we all posted and won the debate on her website in October) is saying "why don't we stop this" with the full power of the Congress.

She means "why don't we stop this" above and beyond IMBRA itself.

She wants to ban the dating of foreign women altogether.

And the Republican US Department of Labor government official, Karen Czarnecki, only offered a quick "its a free country" before agreeing with her in principle otherwise.

There was NO DEBATE but it was billed as a debate.

This is America in 2006.
[/quote]
What I find interesting is that the entire panel consisted of women who are opposed to the concept of “mail order brides” at all.  They seem to admit that they believe that these foreign women are using American men to get American citizenship, and to “better themselves”.  This behavior on the part of the foreign women doesn’t seem to bother them.

They view “mail order bride” clients as controlling and domineering.  They don’t provide any evidence for this, except that many of the men do not like American women.  They presume that it is the assertiveness of American women that the men who use international dating agencies do not like.

In many respects, the fact that there aren’t any opposing viewpoints is good, because it allows the American public to see the belief system that is behind the International Marriage Broker Regulation Act.  In addition, they admit that there is only anecdotal evidence for an alleged epidemic of spousal abuse in the “mail order bride” industry.  Look at their body language.  They obviously are offended by the “mail order bride” industry and what they perceive it to represent (e.g. a rejection of American feminism).  These (I presume feminists) have done the public a favor.  

This seems to be their argument:
1)   “Mail order bride” clients are domineering men;
2)   “Mail order brides” are using American men to “better themselves”;
3)   Feminists are indifferent to men being exploited by “mail order brides”;
4)   Feminists would like to eliminate the industry, because they find “mail order bride” clients offensive.


Title: Pbs Television Talk Show "debate" On Imbra: Only Women On Panel
Post by: VeteransAbroad on December 14, 2006, 02:04:37 PM
I wrote the following letter to the African-American Congresswoman Eleanor Holmes-Norton who was on that tragic video:

Dear Congresswoman Holmes Norton,

I saw you on "To the Contrary" on PBS where you started off defending people who date online but then you said "Now we have some facts".

WHAT FACTS?

When 5000 American women are abused per month, you look at the "fact" that a foreign bride was abused and that becomes a reason for the International Marriage Broker Regulation Act?

There is no fact there. The stats say that we men who date European women are 7 times less likely to abuse our girlfriends and wives. You had no right to vote for IMBRA as it is about to be overturned by a federal court for violating the Constitution in five different ways.

And another thing: How could you sit in that debate with the radical feminist Bonnie Erbe when there was NO MAN there to defend himself in the "debate"?

How could you listen to Bonnie say that "we" should ban online dating altogether if the woman isn't American?

And Karen Czarnick was a Bush administration official in the Dept of Labor? Slandering men the way she did?

And what is this remark about the women being desperate for dating a guy like me?

I am an MBA and I put food on the table of Washington constituents!

Please. Check out www.online-dating-rights.com and be reasonable.

We date educated and beautiful, non-desperate foreign women because they don't sit around in one-side debates gloating about how they've taken over the US media and now occupy positions in the US Dept of Labor...which gives them the right to bash men unopposed.


Title: Pbs Television Talk Show "debate" On Imbra: Only Women On Panel
Post by: VeteransAbroad on December 14, 2006, 02:38:28 PM
Actually, to come to think of it...

I am not really cool that this person is the Director of the 21st Century Workforce for the US Department of Labor.

How can we remove her from office? We have the video tape.

Let's not let this go. At least not completely. It is major ammunition that we have a US Government official engaged in such a childish one sided debate where she slanders an important American minority: white businessmen.

Someone should give this a run for the money. We have to stop future government officials from thinking its OK to slander males so cavalierly on national television.


Title: Pbs Television Talk Show "debate" On Imbra: Only Women On Panel
Post by: VeteransAbroad on December 14, 2006, 04:08:44 PM
This is getting worse...more depressing...

Michelle Bernard of the "Independent Women's Forum" is clearly a radical feminist from the literature about her...but she is of Iraqi origin and is in tight with the Bush Administration as a major supporter of the Iraq War:http://www.iwf.org/experts/ex_bernard.asp

This is getting disgusting. You remember what she said on the video: "This frightens me....sexual trafficking and the potential for a lot of women to get hurt". Never has any American dating site been accused of sexual trafficking. Unbelievable.

No wonder I was delted from FreeRepublic.com. They've got the entire friggin Republican Party wrapped around their fingers.

Here is more of the bio:

Presently, Bernard is leading IWF's Iraqi women's democracy initiative and is the program officer of the Iraqi Women's Educational Institute (IWEI). IWEI is a joint project of IWF, the American Islamic Congress, and the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies. Since joining IWF, Bernard has worked with the Women's Alliance for a Democratic Iraq, delegations of Iraqi women activists, and others to promote the full economic, social and political participation of Iraqi women as Iraq moves towards its January 2005 elections.  Bernard has been a driving force in promoting the human rights of women, ethnic and religious minorities. She has assisted in the development and implementation of training programs on the pillars of democracy, women's rights and religious freedom, political activism in a democracy, issues of governance, free markets and micro-enterprise. Additionally, Bernard has assisted in the development and implementation of briefings for Iraqi women on the Economic Index of Freedom, literacy, and polling.

Maybe the Iraqi insurgents are seeing something that they really don't like going on in Iraqi society now that women like this are part of the occupiers.

Keep in mind that I am saying this as a major supporter of Operation Iraqi Freedom...until now that I am beginning to wonder...

Oh my God...this woman is best friends with Condi Rice!
 (http://)

The investigation of what I thought was a bunch of sad and lonely kaffeeklatch losers turns out that two of them are very powerful in the Bush Administration.


Title: Pbs Television Talk Show "debate" On Imbra: Only Women On Panel
Post by: tristan on December 14, 2006, 08:32:08 PM
I sent the following message to TTC Extra, the name of the show that broadcast this program via PBS.  

TTContrary@yahoo.com

TTC Extra:

I viewed a video of your October 20, 2006 production on "Mail Order Brides" with hostess Bonnie Erbe.

I was shocked at the blatant sexist, misandrist, racist, xenophobic and ethnocentric attitudes displayed by Ms. Erbe and the guests.

Ms. Erbe begins the show by stating that violence in international marriages is up significantly.  The first guest to speak says she is not surprised that there is a spike in violence.  Ms. Erbe and others suggest that anectodal evidence shows this problem is out of control.

And then, Ms. Erbe states that SHE HASN'T SEEN ANY STATISTICS ON VIOLENCE IN SUCH RELATIONSHIPS.  Of course, I do not believe this is true.  I believe that Ms. Erbe knows well that statistics, including statistics gathered by the INS, show that violence in such relationships is LOWER than violence in relationships between American men and American women.

Other guests stated that such women are subservient, have less education and no career prospects.  There are no statistics showing any of this and in any event these statements are highly disparaging to the foreign women.  But from the tenor and tone of the conversation it is clear that Ms. Erbe and your female guests INTEND to disparage these foreign women as the women on your show believe that such foreign women are inferior to American women.

In what is one of the worst examples of a smear, one woman guest implies that meeting a woman on the internet who happens to be from another country may be linked to sex trafficking.  

I noted that your To the Contrary series is intended to be about women's issues.  Who would ever have thought that a television production in 2006 hosted by women who consider themselves enlightened would be filled with false facts, innuendo and smears based on race and gender due to complete and utter ignorance.

You should visit our website to educate yourselves.  It is online-dating-rights.org.  Then, you should invite two of our men to debate two of your women on this issue.  It would be a great experience for your viewers, but you will never do it because the truth about this issue and about the law is simply unacceptable for your management.

Tristan Laurent   (more below)

Then, I sent a copy of the email to the following organizations that were listed as program sponsors.  These are all foundations that are surely strong supporters of women's issues.  It is likely that they are blind to the blatant hatred espoused on their sponsored shows and might be able to see a dull light after hearing from us.  I encourage all of you to write to TTC or any of these sponsors.

Marguerite Casey Foundation
Rhodes and Leona B. Carpenter Foundation (cant find address)
Jacob & Valeria Langeloth Foundation
Peter J. Sharp Foundation
Wallace Genetic Foundation
Annie E. Casey Foundation
Charles A. Frueauff Foundation  (had to write snailmail letter)
Henry H. Kessler Foundation


Title: Pbs Television Talk Show "debate" On Imbra: Only Women On Panel
Post by: maverick on December 14, 2006, 09:59:11 PM
Aint she somethin'


[attachmentid=41]
Ban Foreign Scabs


Title: Pbs Television Talk Show "debate" On Imbra: Only Women On Panel
Post by: frank johnson on December 15, 2006, 01:01:51 AM
A repulsive angry woman bitching with other repulsive angry women about the need to stop  attractive REAL women from coming to America and marrying those repulsive American men.

The hatred! The venom! The jealousy! The bias! The ignorance! The insecurity!

Of course they had to have the show all to themselves. Any hetero-sexual guy off the street would have made them look like fools within 5 minutes and THEY KNOW IT!

What's the matter Bonnie and Karen Czarnecki? Jealous of the foreign competition? Frightened of an opposing view? Afraid to debate an issue?

How about a REAL debate with REAL people instead of other brainwashed feminist puppets reading from the same 30 year old script of lies and made-up facts? Do you really think that normal people are still falling for that propaganda after 30 years and NOTHING that proves a word of it is true?

Why do women with such weak brains and principles think to themselves how strong they are?

You sure feed the propaganda that feminists are completely incapable of thinking for themselves. You also feed all the other feminist propaganda out there also.

I don't know if you are more more afraid of foreign women or American men, but you sure ARE afraid!

It is because you know these foreign women are better than you?

Is it because you know American men are smarter than you and don't desire you?

Is it because you are afraid the bats will get in your hair at night?

If you are lucky, when I go on PBS to talk about the facts as to why feminists should be regulated and banned from government positions, I MAY allow you to come on but only if you say "Please Master!"

Why don't you come on here for some practice into what the word "debate" means?


Title: Pbs Television Talk Show "debate" On Imbra: Only Women On Panel
Post by: VeteransAbroad on December 15, 2006, 02:52:01 AM
The sad thing is that Bonnie won't admit the real reason why she feels the need to disparage the competition.

The two high level Republican women who agreed with her (there was no debate) are both new mothers, however. Some American males were attracted to them I assume...which makes me wonder why the bitterness. No European woman bats an eyelash at the concept of a local man marrying a foreign woman. Why would a married American woman care?

Maybe that is because borders in Europe are so close together.

This is superpower jingoism gone mad...the we're superior syndrome.

For journalists, I have the direct phone numbers of the women in this video who agreed to be part of a one-sided hatchet job. They are all very high up in the US government or clearly have the ear of high level officials. Michelle Bernard of the IWF is good friends with Condi Rice and has been trying to feminize the Iraqi government.

If I were an Iraqi man, I would not trust anyone who took this woman
seriously.

Everyone here knows that I have been a strong supporter of Operation Iraqi Freedom. But, as of last night, when I realized who this Michelle Bernard of the Independent Womens Forum was...it occurred to me that George Bush really does have very bad judgement regarding Iraq and I can understand why none of the Muslim countries wants a world that George Bush & Michelle Bernard envisage.

Sure, a lot of what they envisage is good...but the fundamentals are wrong. You can't put a radical left wing feminist in charge of women's issues in the Republican Party or in new Muslim democracies.

Use of the word "Mail Order Bride" defines radical left wing feminist.

You can't put someone like that in a new Muslim democracy.

Michelle Bernard needs to be kept out of meddling in Iraqi affairs because she is putting US soldiers at risk who would now be cluelessly defending her basic attitude.

Now about politics: We do ourselves a disservice, IMHO, when we say without a caveat that IMBRA is not about politics or left or right, only freedom.

The reason is that this gives the radfems the right to say the same thing about their ideology. They say "this is not about politics, only about stopping violence against women."

See what I mean? They instantly take over the United States with such a statement. No opposition from the Chimp .

[That is the first time I called him that by the way - I voted for him in 2004]

Republican official Karen Czernecki, Director of the 21st Century Workforce, fell completely silent after I told her that the literature she'd been "reading" was radical left wing. She didn't have a clue that her beliefs belonged on any spectrum...and this is bad because it gave the Republican Party the excuse to abandon men.

The sickening video would have been easier to take if not for then learning how high two of these women are in the Bush Administration and how they WILL BE JOCKEYING FOR POSITIONS IN THE NEXT REPUBLICAN ADMINSTRATION.

We can't close our eyes to the politics here. The Democratic Congresswoman was, surprisingly, the nicest about us in the video until that vicious "But now we have facts. Some regulation is needed" in response to a mentally challenged argument about how "documenting incidents" means anything in a country where domestic violence runs at 7% of the population.

We know the Democrats can be asked to be reasonable. I encourage all Democrats with influence to help there.

But there is a huge political problem regarding the Republican Party. Should a group of men, comprising 3% of the population, blackmail the 2008 Republican contender with a threatened swing vote until the Republicans dump the radfems?

And then whom would we demand be dumped? The above people or Condi Rice as well?

Do we want Condi Rice in the next administration considering she's best friends with a woman in the above video?


Title: Pbs Television Talk Show "debate" On Imbra: Only Women On Panel
Post by: larryJ on December 15, 2006, 06:06:20 AM
Man I did not know there was such hatred out there. Is PBS public tv? It makes you want to stop supporting them. Cant we get a group of men, put them on PBS and have our own little debate. I wonder if PBS would allow such a thing? If they did, it would upset the apple cart.

When you use the media you can get your message out to millions. Even if it is not the truth, because it is on TV is seems more true than in print. Especially if you stage it as if it is some kind of official debate. It kind of reminds me of those info commercials. They always to such lengths to make them seem like the real thing. That is what this basically was, an info commercial for IMBRA.

I always laugh at those info commercials. Sometimes they make it look like their is a talk show host interview people or a news reporter, etc. But people fall for it.

Tristan, excellent letter but is the domain name wrong:

\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"You should visit our website to educate yourselves. It is online-dating-rights.org. Then, you should invite two of our men to debate two of your women on this issue. It would be a great experience for your viewers, but you will never do it because the truth about this issue and about the law is simply unacceptable for your management.\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"

I thought it ends in .com -- not .org


VA  why not write to PBS and see if they will let you have your own little debate. Sometimes attacking is not the best approach. Instead you counter with your own message. I think you have a strong message. Just come up with an angle PBS will buy off on. I know it would be great to have a few of those ladies on your show to debate, but unless they will do so willingly you may be waiting a long time. Do not wait, have your own debate.

Excellent stuff VA. Where do you find this stuff?


Larry


Title: Pbs Television Talk Show "debate" On Imbra: Only Women On Panel
Post by: VeteransAbroad on December 15, 2006, 06:44:38 AM
Hi Larry,

It isn't difficult, unfortunately, to get daily content on the insanity of American radicals. Just go to the blog at GaryBala.com and check out the blog athttp://nycbuck.blogspot.com or whatever. Then you cross-post something. I gave attribution to Gary Bala at the top of this thread. Gary will probably be the first person to hear of Judge Cooper's decision, so its actually a better bet to check there for the most critical updates.

Frank: You post a lot over there but didn't cross-post this video. Please cross-post important things like this that others might not see who can't find GB's blog.

Cross-Posting is the only way to build a story and get the story search engine positioning. Some people are going to have to take this story of the Department of Labor Official slandering men and get it posted for search engines elsewhere.

As for PBS: I stopped spending most of my time in the USA in 2004 because of the dishonest way the US media behaved. My problem then was with the left wing: I thought they were congenitally dishonest. IMBRA has opened my eyes to the fact that just about anyone who goes into certain professions is dishonest whether they are left wing or right wing. Tony Snow is a perfect example. Bill Oreilly is another. These people have no brains and I can fully understand why intelligent Europeans shudder at the idea of ever having to live in the USA for long periods.

In Europe, there is no contact with people like the two women from the video whom I spoke with last night.

So, after talking with them, I have felt like I need to take shower after shower all day today.

Look at the video again and imagine me talking with Dept of Labor Director Karen Czardecki in real life. It is like I handled a poisonous snake and the poison went through the skin of the snake.

For things like debates in the USA, we are going to need a full-time paid lobbyist who actually gets off on talking with left wing radfems in the Bush Administration. We need a bulldog to make sure such people do not continue into the next administration.

If Giuliani runs for president, we are going to want a lobby to tell him who NOT to put in his cabinet.

That said, I'd gladly debate people in Europe.


Title: Pbs Television Talk Show "debate" On Imbra: Only Women On Panel
Post by: tristan on December 15, 2006, 10:43:37 AM
Larry,

I goofed when I wrote .org in my letter.  But I sent it to the wrong address (the correct one is TTCviewers@yahoo.com) and it bounced, so I have corrected this error and resent it.

Also, one of the foundation letters bounced so I can correct that one, and the snailmail letter to another foundation hasn't gone out yet so I can correct that one, too.

You make a good point that we should try to get our own time on a show.  But remember, Larry, that we are all volunteers here.  We are not paid like Bonnie Erbe, we don't get salaries and appear on TV as part of our job like the US official, we don't get salaries as do foundation grant givers who decide to support this hateful speech.  We all have jobs and most of us live outside the city where the TV should would be produced and would have to spend a lot of money, take time off from work, etc. to do this.  In addition, some of us value our privacy and we would have to expose ourselves to certain public ridicule by women paid to ridicule us.  Some of our members who are very eloquent have professional jobs and reputations that radical feminists would be only so happy to try to harm in their zealous rage.


Title: Pbs Television Talk Show "debate" On Imbra: Only Women On Panel
Post by: larryJ on December 15, 2006, 11:13:14 AM
Tristan

May I be so bold to ask, how do you plan on defeating this law? I know I am new here, but it seems that there is always an excuse waiting in the lurk. If anyone else is reading your remarks they would quickly walk away with any support thinking that your dedication to your cause is not sincere.

Very few people in history have  made significant changes without putting themselves in positions that may not be popular, time consuming or even threatening. I don’t see how you are going to defeat IMBRA hiding behind a veil. Thats my thoughts or at least the  impression you give each time you  comment on any suggestion. It makes me want to say “whats the use”

Is this just a place to let off some steam by voicing your thoughts? If so, I will get off the band wagon.  As this place leading member, if you will lead us by example, I’m sure many will follow. If not, many will read your words thinking this place is about chatting. For what it is worth, that is the impression I am starting to get.

Larry

How come I can not PM you? I hit your PM button in your post and get an error. Some views would be nice to share with you privately.


Title: Pbs Television Talk Show "debate" On Imbra: Only Women On Panel
Post by: tristan on December 15, 2006, 11:31:33 AM
Larry,

I don't know about the PM and don't have time to figure it now.  You can read elsewhere how I must upgrade the site for security reasons and it takes up much of my time.  You can email me.  See the address at the bottom of the Tahirih challenge on the home page.

You can read in our Law forum about the two lawsuits that are challenging this law.  In one a final decision is overdue and may come anyday.   Some of our members contributed funds to the other lawsuit.  That is tangible action.  

Otherwise, we are working on other aspects which are less immediate but no less important.  I contacted the NY Times reporter several months ago and this resulted in a news story about this law.

At least two of our members have contributed heavily to another major newsstory that may appear soon.  One of our members, Dave Root, has been a prolific author and has had several letters published in newspapers in the Virginia area about this law.

These members are encouraged and supported by this site.  Some of our members have dug up very useful information that we have shared among us and with others, such as these reporters.  This information includes a complete debunking, with facts and figures, of all the reasons given for this law.


Title: Pbs Television Talk Show "debate" On Imbra: Only Women On Panel
Post by: larryJ on December 15, 2006, 12:00:35 PM
What about new members, new support? If you are trying to recruit new people to invest their time, money or both, there needs to be some salesmanship in recruiting those new people. I realize that IMBRA is a bad law, but before I, or  anyone, invest in the fight for or against IMBRA, they want to know more about how the fight will be fought. Your diplomacy or lack of patience will not work in your favor. If recruiting is an interest of yours, you have a bad way of demonstrating it. I even offered to help, no response.

It feels like I wore out my welcome or my usefulness here. No hard feelings. I’ll move on.

VA you were the first one to make me feel welcome here. Thanks. Keep up the good work. It is obvious you are brilliant and have the right stuff.

Larry


Title: Pbs Television Talk Show "debate" On Imbra: Only Women On Panel
Post by: tristan on December 15, 2006, 12:16:09 PM
Since Larry is no longer here, he cannot answer, but if anyone else can give me constructive criticism on they way I treated Larry undiplomatically or with no patience, I am all ears.

I certainly don't want to lose new members, but I don't really understand the basis for Larry's discontent.    He never did email me, and I don't recall any specific offer of help from him.


Title: Pbs Television Talk Show "debate" On Imbra: Only Women On Panel
Post by: NewTaylor on December 15, 2006, 03:07:03 PM
On the old forum, there was a social scientist that has worked on gender equity issues with feminist organizations for almost 20 years.  This is a perfect example of what he was talking about.

Feminists set up “no lose” situations for themselves.  A feminist played the role of defending the “mail order bride” industry.  They (feminists) do not seem to be willing to place themselves in the position of being challenged.  This wasn’t a debate; it was a group of feminists reinforcing their own unsubstantiated opinions. These feminists have disdain for the men that use international dating agencies.

What is most problematic is Megan Beyer stating that she feels sorry for the women who are “mail order brides”.  She is tacitly admitting that she believes that these women are committing visa fraud, and she doesn’t seem to have any problem with this.  You could only have this type of opinion if you hate (or have contempt for) the men who use the services of international dating agencies.

There is domestic abuse in relationships here in the United States.  There is no evidence that the level of domestic abuse is worse in “mail order bride” marriages as opposed to those “brokered” here in America.  Should we regulate how men and women meet and date here in America?  It would be interesting to hear what their answer to that question would be.


Title: Pbs Television Talk Show "debate" On Imbra: Only Women On Panel
Post by: maverick on December 15, 2006, 08:46:06 PM
No love from Bonnie and friends

[attachmentid=42]


Title: Pbs Television Talk Show "debate" On Imbra: Only Women On Panel
Post by: frank johnson on December 16, 2006, 01:24:16 AM
What a coven!

I recognize "Moe"reen, "Larry"anne and "Curly"ette, but who are the other 3 stooges?

I imagine these models of feminist pulchritude admire themselves while looking at this photo thinking "We and only we know what is best to stop foreign women from coming here...er we mean to "protect" them from those abusive American men who would dare seek non-feminist nags."

When I look at this photo, I see six good reasons why men should crawl over broken glass in order to meet and marry foreign women!

By the way if their smug poses with arms folded like "look at me, aren't I something?" look familiar, it is because it is the same pose in the photo that Layli loves of herself standing in front of the Capital Building while thinking "Watch out you old men in politics. I'm gonna purge you personally after WE take over!"

Like I always say, these brainwashed robots just can't think for themselves can they?

"Should we wear our klan outfits so people can see our true selves? No, no, let's use the same pose as  our idol, Layli. Hey it works for her! Let's be just like her and we will get lots of easy money too! Yeah! We parrot her lies and made-up facts anyways. Let's get our hair done just like her too! Right girls?"


Title: Pbs Television Talk Show "debate" On Imbra: Only Women On Panel
Post by: VeteransAbroad on December 16, 2006, 08:06:47 PM
Hi Larry,

I love your sense of urgency and please don't lose it. But note that it is a very good excuse for busy executives not to have the time to battle IMBRA full-time. Still, 99.5% of the men who hear about IMBRA and do nothing at all concrete are worth criticizing.

But that wouldn't include Tristan who just took over ODR two weeks ago and is doing an excellent job on several different fronts (of which cleaning up the forum software mess is only one issue).

Much of the progress we are making is behind the scenes. This thread alone has gotten us a very powerful ally that I cannot talk about.

So you have helped get us a powerful ally by participating in this thread.

Note that I consider 1 powerful ally (who may never post) more important than 100 regular Joes who might show up here and say "Hi guys. Great forum. Keep up the good work." and we never hear from them again.


Title: Pbs Television Talk Show "debate" On Imbra: Only Women On Panel
Post by: Bugman803 on December 17, 2006, 10:16:17 AM
The panelists on  the PBS program collectively appear to represent an old Soviet Politburo.  This one sided TV program is the perfect example of how modern day radicals are able to force their radical views on a democratic society.  These women (on the panel) embrace the new radical feminism which is an all inclusive theory to solve all problems similar to the Marxist theory. Their (radicalism) views today are every bit as destructive as the Marxism was back a hundred years ago.

What is really apparent though is the apparent selfishness of Megan Beyer who jealously complains, "American men seeking foreign brides have made comments...They don't want  these American women" and the attitude of these American men is "ME ME ME". Then she goes on spewing anecdotal hysteria by suggesting relationships are one sided in favor of the man, "It appears this is a cynical deal.. It doesn't sound like a love match to me."
Ms. Beyer's made these outrageous anecdotal heresy claims in spite of the fact these International marriages are in fact the ideal "love match" enjoying a far lower rate of divorce with  a domestic abuse rates 6 times less than the rate of abuse for the entire US populace.

Megan Beyer suggests that men involved in these relationships are only interested in themselves but Ms. Beyer's words and interpersonal language reveals her outright jealousy towards American men.

Ms. Beyer and the other panel members appear to be personal  tyrants who want to create their own private empires at the expense of the civil liberties of all law abiding Americans.  There is not a seed of truth from any members in the panel; nor is there any empirical evidence suggesting there is a problem with "mail order brides"  with Bonnie Erbe stating " I  haven't looked at any data regarding domestic violence".  So if they haven't looked at any  data evidence why are they suggesting a need for laws laws to regulate International Romance.

(Eleanor Holmes- Norton) insinuates the need to regulate IMB facilitated relationships based upon "anecdotal" evidence. This one sided propaganda program suggests these women would be shocked and angry if someone like myself would  be allowed to participate on a panel discussion in a fair & respectful manner.  Their concern (Of course) is that I would publicly state the truth while suggesting the notions of (their radical) anecdotal evidence  with NO empirical evidence reveals their apparent lack of credibility. The anecdotal evidence (they cited) is something akin to a riddle surrounded by a mystery that appears mysteriously and then disappears and then magically reappears again. Alas the  radical feminists great anecdotal illusion "game" would be exposed and the radicals would not approve of that just like the Comrades in Russia would have disapproved of exposing the truth and their ulterior motive to the public.

Communism and radical feminism (those who embrace IMBRA )appears to be a satanic movement devoted to human degradation and tyranny in the absence of truth and  due legislative and judicial process. Of course, no one would support  ( IMBRA) it if the public knew the truth and their ulterior motive- "to prevent American men from marrying women uninfected by American feminism"which the promoters of IMBRA mistakenly published (in a jealous angry weak moment) a PR web release on July 3, 2004.
 (http://)


Title: Pbs Television Talk Show "debate" On Imbra: Only Women On Panel
Post by: HVX200 on December 17, 2006, 02:45:56 PM
YOU PEOPLE JUST DON'T GET IT

Now that I got your attention.... Yesterday when I first looked at this thread I wondered if any of you guys would understand the reasons of what is fueling all of this. Congresswoman Eleanor Holmes-Norton gave us our biggest clue when she said how surprised she was when she learned about how violent we men are who marry "mail order brides". What made her believe this? Could it be that along with this year's statistic of 37,500 women and children entering the country by family based visas that there were 9,500 women and children who accused their American men of abuse? That is allot more than 1%. While we are quoting dated 1999 statistics the feminists have there war machine operating at full speed creating the conditions that give Congresswoman Eleanor Holmes-Norton cause for alarm. That is all these abuse petitions being filed every year at an ever increasing rate. This is what is fueling all of this.  

Instead of fighting for just this issue of dating rights you should be fighting to expose the issue that fuels all of this. That is false abuse charges to get a green card and with it the issues that:

1) American citizens are being accused of abuse in secret by their foreign spouses to the INS
2) They are given no provision to present their side of their story
3) Nor are they asked
4) That under new VAWA rules the INS (USCIS) is forbidden to contact these US citizens
5) Americans without any contact or representation are being labeled as "Abusers" and placed in Federal files for life as such

Can you imagine any court operating like this?

And of course with these conditions in place there will be a dramatic growth in false claims. Just think what it is going to be like when the embassies start handing out the "Abuse-R-Us" pamphlets at the interviews.  

People like Felix come in here looking for a story. Online dating rights with foreign women just doesn't get then worked up enough to champion it. The issue above would. It is our best example of the feminist influence of overturning "equal justice" for United States citizens. It is easy understand once you get all the facts and it is easy to accept that US citizens should be able to present their side of their story.  

We need to fight this like a strategic war not a tactical battle. We need to expose and then crush the conditions that fuel the feminist war machine of this fight. We need to direct media attention to the secret Star Chamber hearings held in Saint Albans Vermont against it's own citizens. All the while to keep fighting the skirmishes over IMBRA. Otherwise I fear the biased statistics that the V.A.W.A. unit in Vermont will provide will overwhelm us.

HVX


Title: Pbs Television Talk Show "debate" On Imbra: Only Women On Panel
Post by: NewTaylor on December 17, 2006, 06:19:10 PM
A basic concern that I have is with false abuse charges.  Based upon the government’s own study on the “mail order bride” industry, the government believes that many of the foreign women who are marrying American men are doing so for citizenship and personal gain.  Love isn’t in the equation. [1]

IMBRA will facilitate false abuse claims.  An American man potentially risks everything by marrying a “mail order bride”.  I don’t think that this situation is by accident.

It may be that women in these “mail order bride” marriages do suffer higher rates of abuse.  The simple fact of the matter is that we don’t know, because there aren’t any reliable statistics on this subject.

Any meaningful government regulation of this industry should protect both the men and the women involved in the process.  Regulation is needed, but not in the form of IMBRA.  IMBRA assumes that all of the abuses in the process are coming from men and the “marriage brokers”.  That simply isn’t correct.  IMBRA should be amended, so that it provides some protections to men who are being taken advantage of.  I do agree with Megan Beyer that some of these foreign women are using American men.

Reference:
1.   Robert J. Scholes, Ph.D., "The "Mail-Order Bride" Industry and Its Impact on            U.S. Immigration,"http://uscis.gov/graphics/aboutus/repsstudies/Mobappa.htm


Title: Pbs Television Talk Show "debate" On Imbra: Only Women On Panel
Post by: imbraisevil on December 17, 2006, 08:47:16 PM
It's men that need to be pritected from the feminists not the other way around. Here are a few thousand horror stories men face when seeking an FW:


 Ok, you fembot bastards here is my response:

The average income of an American men seeking an FW to marry is $80,000, with a degree and also who is very reserved.

I have not yet talked with an FW that wants to move to the usa. The old "they only want citizen" blabber does not apply in most cases. FW would be thrilled if men could live in their country and they encourage them to do so. Most men seeking FW would gladly move from the usa if they could take their jobs and income with them.

Notice the fembots say "not educated" over and over. That is discrimination towards those that do not have a college degree. To be in amazement one had to have a college at Enron. Notice the total disdain and bigotry these women have towards FW. Their deep seeded hatred of FW is glaringly apparent.

The host says she has not researched the topic on the internet but to briefly read that some unknown FW from the Dominican Republic claimed she was raped. The fact is that it is men that face the most danger when looking for the FW and IMBRA heightens that danger. I literally do not have enough room on this page for stories that took me less than 5 seconds to find of men getting scammed.

Here just one link where FW are alleged to have tried to scam men:http://www.womenrussia.com/blacklist.htm#last

Page 471:
Updates 8 May 2006 - Page 1

* Anastasiya (Nastya) - Detchino, Russia
* Anna Terehova - Yoshkar-Ola, Russia
* Darya Kryukova - Kirovsk, Leningrad region, Russia aka Malina and/or Anastisiya Matvienko (Pereslavl-Zaleski, Yaroslavl Region Russia)
* Elena Tanygina - Cheboksary, Russia aka Elena Solovieva and Angelika Fimova
* Lyudmila Chernysheva - Vladimir, Russia

Page 472:
Updates 8 May 2006 - Page 2

* Marianna Bushmakina -Saratov, Russia
* Lyuadmila or Marina Romanova - Makhachkala, Russia
* Tatyana - Sernur, Russia
* Olga Solomina - Ufa, Russia
* Sofiya Kozhinova - Yoshkar-Ola, Russia

Page 473:
Updates 8 May 2006 - Page 3

* Larisa Popova - Tomsk, Russia aka Anatoliy Nykolaevich Pustozerov and Avantix Tour Agency
* Anita Anna - Bryanka (Lugansk region), Russia - Language Universal Guild Association

Page 474:
Updates 23 May 2006

* Aleksandra Liholetova - Omsk, Russia
* Elena Potehina - Moscow, Russia
* Lyudmila Chernysheva - Vladimir, Russia
* Natalya Alekseeva aka Nastasia Chirimisova - Kotlas, Russia
* Oksana Zagaynova - Samara, Russia

Page 475:
Updates 25 May 2006

* Anna Kulygina - Cheboksary, Russia
* Anna Tarsova - Omsk, Russian Federation
* Elena Chernova - Omsk, Russia
* Svetlana Zagainova - Yoshkar Ola/ Cheboksary, Russia
* Oksana Kir/Kirpichnikova - Cheboksary, Russia

Page 476:
Updates 29 May 2006

* Ekaterina Derkach - Samara, Russia
* Elena Nagieva - Cheboksary/ Moscow, Russia
* Larisa Kudryaceva - Vjatskie Poliany, Russia
* Tatiana Borichevskaia - Sanchursk, Russia
* Valentina Dudina - Saratov, Russia

Page 477:
Updates 1 June 2006

* Natalia Markina - Achair Russia - 1
* Natalia Markina - Achair, Russia - 2
* Polina Dubrovina - Elabuga, Russia
* Kristina Polushina - Kazan, Russia
* Sofiya Kozhinova - Yoshkar-Ola, Russia

Page 478:
Updates 4 June 2006

* Alexandra Romashova - Toguchin/Novosibirskaya, Russia
* Irina Medvedeva - Samara, Russia
* Ekaterina Kochkaryova - Gatchina/St. Petersburg/Moscow, Russia
* Marianna Aptysheva - Perm, Russia
* Anastasiya Vinogradova, Orenburg Russia
* Anastasiya Vinogradova, Orenburg Russia

Page 479:
Updates 9 June 2006

* Yulia Kamenschikowa or Elena Lupanowa/Yuzhnyy and Barnaul/Siberia, Russian Federation
* Svetlana Kovaleva - Orlov, Russia

Page 480:
Updates 24 June 2006

* Yulia Camenschikowa - Yuzhnyy, Russia
* Lyudmila Butenko - Smolenka, Russia
* Natalya Kolchino - Norilsk, Russia
* Tatyana (Tanya) Zaneeva (Ivanovo Russia)
* Valentina Volkova - Kozmodemjansk, Russia

Page 481:
Updates 10 July 2006

* Nataliya Volkova (Balakova, Russia)
* Polina Dubrovina (Elabuga, Russia)
* Olga Komarova.(Samara, Russia)
* Volha (Voly) Zaletka (Minsk, Belarus)
* Tatyana Volkova (Orlov, Russia)
* Sofya Efimova (Tomsk, Russia)

Page 482:
Updates 17 July 2006

* Antonida Jandukova (Borisoglebsk, Russia)
* Natalia Mochalova (Cheboksary, Russia)
* Natalia Protasova (Irkutsk, Russia)
* Natalia Konarskaya (Tomsk, Russia)

Page 483:
Updates 24 July 2006

* Natasha Derzhavina (CHUVASH REPUBLIC, Russia)

Page 484:
Updates 8 August 2006 - Page 1

* Anastasiya Koneva ( Archangelsk, Russia)
* Elena Istutova (Yoshkar-ola, Russia)
* Marina Botchkareva (Biysk, Russia)
* Mariya Ivanova (Orlov, Russia)

Page 485:
Updates 8 August 2006 - Page 2

* Natalia Protasova (Moscow, Russia)
* Tatjana Oleinikowa ( Moscow, Russia)

Page 486:
Updates 22 August 2006 - Page 1

* Anna Pyatova (Samara, Russian Federation)
* Elena Devchonka (Saransk Russia)
* Elena Levanova (Revda, Sverdlovskaya obl, Russia)
* Elena Uvarova (Irkutsk Russia)

Page 487:
Updates 22 August 2006 - Page 2

* Lyudmila Matveeva (Cheboksary, Russia)
* Marina Miheeva (Novokuznetsk, Russia) also Konovalov Oleg and Captain Vrungel travel agency
* Nadejda Sidikova (Khabarovsk Russia)
* Olga (Olya) Moskvina Yekaterinburg and Moscow, Russia
* Yulia Sazonova (Ryazan, Russia)

Page 488:
Updates 29 August 2006

* Iesmina Giosu (Satu Mare, Romania)
* Tatyana Antipina (Samara, Russia)


Page 489:
Updates 5 September 2006

* Elena Kuznecova (Saransk, Russia)
* Irina Pletnyova aka Irina Kisljachenko (Seversk, Tomskaya area, Russia)
* Natalia Chourbakova (Moscow, Russia)
* Liliya Syltanova (Baykalsk, Siberia)

Page 490:
Updates 15 September 2006

* Olga Pageneeva (Kirov, Russia)
* Alla Fedotova (Gatchina, Russia)
* Evgeniya Russia (Ivanovo, Russia) and Easy Travel Agency
* NATALIA SHULEPOVA ( Yoshkar-Ola, Russia)
* Lana, Milandriya (Inza, Russia)

Page 491:
Updates 16 September 2006

*

Lyudmila Shirokova, Lyuda Shirokova (Perm, Russia)
* Larisa Laponova (St. Petersburg, Russia)
* Mariya Ivanova (Astrakhan, Russia)

Page 492:
Updates 22 September 2006

*

Anna ILCHENKO (New Sokolovo, Russia)
*

Ekaterina Romanenko (Tver, Russia)
*

Ksenia Chercazianouva (Cheremkhovo, Moscow, Russia)

Page 493:
Updates 2 October 2006 - PAGE 1

*

Ekaterina Romanova (Bryansk, Russia)
*

Elena (Yaroslavl, Russia)
*

Lyudmilla G. aka Sofiya Kozhinova (Yoshkar-Ola, Russia)
*

Natalia Sokolowa (Yakutsk - Moscow Russia)

Page 494:
Updates 2 October 2006 - PAGE 2

*

Olga Leis (Novosibirsk Russia)
*

Ksenya Charcazianova (Cheremkhovo, Russia)
*

Valentina Volkova (Kozmodemjansk Russia)
*

Yuliya Kamaeva (Cheboksary Russia)

Page 495:
Updates 10 October 2006

*

Elena Bahtina (SAMARA, RUSSIA)
*

Katya Or Ekaterina Petrova (Kirov, Russia)
*

Tatyana Sychyova (Yoshkar-Ola, Russia)

Page 496:
Updates 19 October 2006

*

Irina (Cheboksary, Russia)
*

Yulia and Selva (Nizhnekamsk, Russia)

Page 497:
Updates 3 November 2006

* Elena Kozlova (Krasnodar, Russia)
* Evgeniya Syshencova (Naberezhnye Chelny, Russia)
* Katya Petrova (Kirov, Russia)
* Lyubow Andrevna Koroleva (Cheboksary, Russia)

Page 498:
Updates 4 November 2006

* Nastya Shabashova (Vladimir Russia)

Page 499:
Updates 18 November 2006

* Anastasiya (Jaransk, Russia)
*

Irina Kondratieva (Yasniy, Russian Federation)
*

Irina Mamaeva (Kostroma, RUSSIA)
*

Mariya Ivanova (Orlov, Russia) AKA Natasha Natalia (Yaransk, Russia)

Page 500:
Updates 18 November 2006

*

Mariya Pustovalova (Yoshkar-Ola, Russia)
*

Nadezhda Travina (Cheboksary, Russia)

Page 501:
Updates 13 December 2006

*

Galina Smirnova and Ivan Nikitin (Saratov, Russia)
*

Tatyana Bezborodova (Yaransk, Russia)
*

Vasilya Salihova (Osa City, Russia)
*

Vika Volinskaya (Ryazan, Russia)

----------------------



The sex trade is not controlled by men in the usa. It is controlled by the mafia in whatever country the woman is from. A man seeking FW for marraige does not want a prostitute as he can just work in an american whoreporation to find those.

They kept on saying men want subservient women which is not true. The average man seeking an FW wants a FW who is ladylike and relaxed. They want an FW that works with her man instead of against him. This group of AW reminded my of a bunch of hyenas. I will continue to vote against funding for PBS.

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President Putin ordered to arrest Internet scam artists after receiving letter from Australian man


Anna Lazareva, whose photos were used by the gang under dozens different aliases
In May 2001 Terry, an Australian man scammed by a group of internet scammers, sent his story to Russian Bride Cyber Guide's Black List. We published his report.

But unlike many other men, Terry not only sent a warning to others but wanted to do more and so continued tracking down the criminals determined to have them prosecuted. He launched a webpage with information on the scammers to collect reports from other victims. In the next step he found and contacted the Russian Embassy in Australia, numerous Russian based newspapers and then various Russian government agencies, including the much feared Russian Tax Police, sending them the scam details. Later he found the official website for Russian government and used it to sent a letter to President Putin about these offenders, not expecting his complaint to ever reach the eyes of the President himself. In his letter to the President Terry implied that it was a matter of Russian honor that these criminals be brought to justice, as they were bringing great discredit on their people and country.

Unbelievably, the letter got into the right hands, the President himself , who ordered the criminals be tracked down.

Some months later Terry was surprised to receive Emails from the Russian Police and Interpol asking for details of the scam. Later he was contacted by and questioned by the State and Federal Police in Australia on behalf of Russian investigators, soon the criminals were caught. Terry was one of only 10 men who came forward to testify in the criminal case but it was his letter that made President Putin order an investigation. Terry did not know that it was his letter to the President that initiated the investigation until he was contacted and informed of it by a journalist for Sydney's Sunday Herald, who had received the details from Moscow after the criminals had been arrested.


Text of the letter Terry sent to President Putin

The scammer gang Terry encountered was started by a husband and a wife, Yuri and Anna Lazarev, Russian citizens. They used photos of Anna to lure men, and female acquaintances to collect wire transfers. At first they used the real name of the wife (Anna Lazareva) to collect money but then moved into using names of other females to receive wire transfers from all over the world. Other aliases were Alfia Magdeeva, Marina Chumachenko, Vasilisa Schelkonogova, Anna Porfireva, Olga Trophimova, and many others.

34-year-old Yuri Lazarev made a set of photos of his wife Anna and was posting them at large Internet personals. Scammers then initiated correspondence with men pretending to be a single Russian girl looking for a serious relationship. The plot was a 27-year old virgin who wanted to wait until she finds the right man. She would soon fall in love with her correspondent and ask him for money for visa and tickets to join the man in his country. After receiving money, the gang would stop correspondence.

Later Lazarev made photos of other women and used them to post on the Internet. The women were unaware their photos were used in a scam.

The gang was contacting hundreds men a day and used major personals websites with their huge databases to solicit correspondence with the male members.

It is believed that the gang, based in Chelyabinsk, Russia, were some of the first dating scammers that used Internet personals to rip off men seeking serious relationship and marriage with Russian women.
According to Chelyabinsk police, the group scammed more than 1,500 men and extorted more than 1,5 million US Dollars from them, in the period of 2000-2002. The spokesperson for Chelyabinsk police said if it was not for Terry's letter to the President Putin, they could continue scamming men through Internet personals.

Recently the story hit pages of newspapers all over the world, starting from the publication in Sydney's Herald.

A telephone interview with Terry was published in the Sunday issue along with details they received from Moscow, and initiated another wave of talks about Internet marriage scams in Australia.

But according to Terry, that was not the whole story.

One could expect that after being scammed Terry would give up on Internet dating and particularly Russian women; quite the opposite. He continued his search and is currently involved with a Ukrainian girl. Terry continues to have a very high opinion of Russian women and Russians in general, and opposes often applied media stereotypes of Russian women on the Internet, being only gold-diggers and scammers etc.

This is what Terry said in his communication with Russian Brides Cyber Guide, after his unbelievable story came public:

"I have commented on similar print stories in the past. I have asked them why they only enjoy labeling and stereotyping Russian and Filipino women on the Internet as all being "mail order brides", immigration scammers, prostitutes, likely slaves, gold diggers or only escaping poverty etc - and not all the Australian women who do the same thing. I have asked them why they always portray any Australian men who are interested in them as being lonely social misfits, unattractive to Australian women, simple, pitiful or violent towards women etc. I ask them, have Australian women never married for reasons other than love? Unfortunately and not unexpectedly they don't bother to reply or change their populist attitude in subsequent stories.

"In the past, I have written to the Prime Minister, Immigration Minister and various talk back radio programs in Sydney, recommending that we encourage increased migration from Russia and Ukraine as it my opinion that your people assimilate very easily and become highly productive, decent, loyal assets to this country, unlike many migrants from other areas. I complained that it seems we only want people from there if they are athletes or coaches who can win us a few extra gold medals at the Olympics.

"In the year 2001-2002 Australia unfortunately only accepted 187 migrants of all classes from those two countries, - despite the fact that they have a combined, and highly educated, population exceeding 200 million.

"Those figures for the 2001 - 2002 are particularly annoying especially when one compares them with some other countries. In this same year we accepted 1,100 more migrants from Lebanon, ( of 6,000 from the Middle East ) which has a population of only 3.5 million, despite the fact that that community here having a 25% unemployment rate and a not small minority being very troublesome, particularly in Sydney, with clearly little interest in assimilating. I wrote several times to Ministers regarding this disparity, I have not been able to get the immigration figures for the 2002 - 2003 period to compare, I hope they are much better than the previous year. We certainly need better quality migrants than many of the ones we are currently accepting.

"Until today I was unaware that your site is based in Australia. I posted a warning on your site a few years ago regarding a Russian scammer I encountered. I actually went to a bit of trouble and took my complaint to the very top and there has been a recent development in that story. It looks like I am going to have the last laugh.

"When I said I went right to the top with a complaint about a Russian scammer, that is exactly what I did, the very top.

"I actually told the very excited Herald journalist, when he suddenly rang me out of the blue late last week, that I really didn't want the story published and I especially didn't want my name or parent's address mentioned, the Herald ignored both these wishes. I told him that in the past the Australian media have almost always taken great delight in applying sweeping, insulting and very unfair stereotypes and labels to people in similar stories.

"As I wouldn't agree to an interview (or photo) prior, the Herald article only told half the story. In my last Email to these criminals I told them that "I would get them using the same tool they had used to dirtily get me and other men." If nothing else I thought I might be able to get them for Tax fraud, so I also contacted the Russian Tax Police by Email. I actually did some of the detective work myself, on the Internet, regarding how many other victims there might be and how much money might be involved. These details I then had Emailed to the Russian Police who had by then contacted me via Email. I found these criminals had many aliases so I sent lists of them to the Moscow Embassies of many countries to try to make sure they could not get visas to travel internationally with on their stolen money. I posted warnings on various web sites including leaving the Email address of the Russian Tax Police, and general Police then investigating the matter, so other victims could get involved.

"As a result of this story, radio and TV stations now want to talk to me, which I am not keen on."
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The women on the video do not get that foreign men do like want to date american women as AW are seen as the worst of the worst. AW have no value while AM are highly valuable. They imply over and over that all men with FW are sex trafficors. Not true. Why would a man with a good job or retired want to get in the sex trafficking business? The fact is they don't. It's the majority of men that need to be protected from FW scammers and not the other way around. The worst scammers though are AW!
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Andrei Nesterov
Moscow, Russia
July 5, 2005

Russian city of Barnaul, situated in southern Siberia, the National News Agency reported.

Hundreds of girls of different professions communicate with foreigners (predominantly American men) online on a daily basis. Ladies of different occupations — reporters and students, nurses and real estate agents — pose as “Cinderellas” in exchange for money they receive from kind-hearted men.

The girls give painful descriptions of their “hardships” and then ask for money. According to the National News Agency, foreign men are especially sensitive to such girls’ legends as “My parents are unemployed, and we are starving,” “I am a victim of domestic violence,” “My mother is a drunkard,” “My house burned down,” and “Chechens kidnapped my brother and demand a ransom.”



The National News Agency wrote that the girls conduct meetings once a week and compete with one another in terms of the amount of money raised from men. At their weekly meetings, the girls read each other the most touching passages from their correspondence, and together brainstorm new tales for their future letters.

The girls involve their friends in this fraud scheme by selling them the addresses of the relevant Web sites, along with recommendations on how to write the letters that will touch foreigners deeply and not raise suspicions. When newcomers begin receiving money from abroad, they are required to share 20 percent of their online earnings with the girls who got them in the business. If she doesn’t want to share the money, her senior “fellow-businessmen” write to the foreign men, calling her a crook. After this, foreigners stop sending her money.

One of the girls, 25-year-old Svetlana says that at one point of her life she realized she could profit from the myths foreigners have about Russia. “They think that Russia is all about criminals and beggars.” Svetlana makes the men feel sorry for the beautiful girl living under such “gloomy” circumstances. The feeling of sorrow is transformed into remittances for Svetlana.

Svetlana is not conscience-stricken about this. On the contrary, she claims she is doing a good thing for foreign men by teaching them to be kind, considerate and human. “We make them feel confident, we say they are the best. In this way, they get rid of their inferiority complex. I should have charged them more for doing this job!”

Not only ladies do such things in Russia, but also some men. A man from Chelyabinsk, an engineer by profession, posed as a girl for dozens of foreign men with whom he had correspondence for five years. When their correspondence turned into “friendship,” the “girl” said she wanted to visit the foreigner, but was short of money. The foreign man sent the money (the swindler hired female students to receive the money), and then the correspondence was stopped. Most men who were cheated, have reconciled themselves to this fact, but one Australian appealed to President Putin’s administration. The authorities initiated a police investigation, and the swindler was detected and sentenced. However, the verdict for him was not that strict — one year of imprisonment. The man was released in the courtroom as he had already spent one year in prison during the investigation. He had managed to make $100,000 in five years.

However, ladies are more inclined to start correspondence with foreigners for shady purposes. The motive for such conduct is described very well in Waytorussia.net’s questions and answers section (www.waytorussia.net/WhatIsRussia/
MythsAndTruth.html). A comment from June 2002 answers the question of whether “Russian girls are quite different from others.” The author says, “Yes, they seem to be, if you mean being different from women in Europe or in the U.S. … They seem to be planning their life less than Western people, but nevertheless are very pragmatic. Many foreigners I talked to say that Russian women want to live ‘here and now’ rather than planning something long-term. However, this ‘here and now’ should be good quality too, so that’s where they are pragmatic.”

Luckily for foreign men, they have some tools to safeguard themselves from some “overly pragmatic” girls. One such tool is a blacklist of Russian women at Russian Brides Cyber Guide’s Web site (www.womenrussia.com/blacklist_summary.htm). It is made by the men who were cheated at some point of their search for a partner. As a rule, girls ask for money for the trip to visit men and start being together. The unlucky men post on the blacklist the names and photos of the ladies with bad reputations, and some of the letters.

If we analyze the letters of the girls from the viewpoint of logic and skepticism, it is hard to believe in the feelings the girls try to express. If the lady does not love the man, it can be easily seen. Some letters remind one of business correspondence more than romantic exchanges. “Dear Himanshu, Write to me the a phone number and I shall call you tomorrow in 5 p.m. Moscow time. I hope it it will be convenient for you. As I can send you a copy of my passport that your doubts have ended. I looked the approximate prices for air tickets for the current month. On the average cost — 1050 $. Inform me if this sum is a problem. I think that the most simple and reliable way to send money is to put them on the account of a plastic card. Unfortunately I have no any plastic cards. But my girlfriend has a card Visa. You can put money for it.” Then account information is given. “Write to me soon and I shall call to you tomorrow. I love you your ELENA.”

However, men are trapped when they forget about precautions and allow feelings to speak for themselves. “She is building a love affair and you are the king. She is beautiful, and if you don’t fall in love with her, you don’t have a pulse,” wrote one of the cheated men bitterly. “I am 46 year old single parent who was scammed by a supposedly 32 year old Russian beauty. She contacted me through Yahoo Personals and three other Russian women have also. She asks for $600.00 for visa, travel to Moscow to embassy, and hotel and food. She breaks it down saying so much for this and so much for that. Then she says it takes about 11 days to wait for visa and asks for $150.00 more. Now the first $150.00 that was included in the original $600.00 was for 4 days hotel stay. Then when she asked for another $150.00 so she could stay in hotel until she got her visa, I knew those figures didn’t work out … at all.”

“If something seems to good to be true, it probably is,” summed up the man his misfortunes.

Surprisingly, some men can be misled even by quite primitive letter samples copied by many girls word for word and sent in dozens, such as this one: “Possible, you can ask me, why I didn’t find a Russian man? I will be very serious, I will answer to you, that I had a boyfriend from Russia from my city, I loved him very much, but he has thrown me in last time. He found another girl, as I have understood. Also I have seen that he liked to drink an alcohol very-very much, as many men in Russia do it, may be you know about it. I don’t like this when men like to drink so much as my last boyfriend did it! I am non-drinking and non-smoking girl! Simply, I don’t have harmful habits!”

In reality, an online fraud business does not teach men to express their best feelings, but it may kill the good in a person who faced this scam and experienced some damage from it. It is hard to estimate the percentage of scammers among Russian women who correspondent with foreign men, it can be only a small fraction of all women, but this spoils the reputation of all Russian ladies (despite the fact that there are many romantic and kind-hearted persons among them, and also many those, some who suffer and need real help).

As for foreign men, they should learn how to distinguish real feelings from acting. For instance, the lady loving you will be ready to invite you to her country, instead of requesting money for her trip to your country. Also, you had better quit some myths about Russia, such as that poverty here is total and every person can afford nothing in her life. There were examples when American men sent money to female employees of oil companies or to a lawyer who claimed that she earned $100 per month. This can hardly happen in real life, even in Russia where the average salary reached 6,577 rubles in 2004, which is equivalent to $235.
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Arrests

Well, my repeated calls, letters, emails and faxes continue to be ignored by the police, ministers and Putin himself. Here's why. The victim must file a complaint himself in the girl's city. Otherwise, no case can be opened against her. So, guys, if you lose money, it's gone forever. (But there might be some light on the horizon. Find her real city and tell me.)
Investigator



Two Russian Students Get Prison Terms for Internet Marriage Fraud (Oct 30, 06)

Two students from the Russian city of Yekaterinburg have been jailed for committing matrimonial fraud with foreigners over the Internet, the Interfax news agency reported on Monday.
One of the convicts, the 28-year-old woman, had sent out her pictures to a number of international matrimonial agencies. After exchanging letters with several men from the United States, Canada and Great Britain the girl asked potential fiances to send her money so she could travel to their countries and meet them in person. Upon receiving the donations which amounted up to $3,000, the girl broke the correspondence.
The court sentenced both to prison terms in a minimum-security correctional labor facility. The girl was sentenced to 5 years and her partner got a 5.5 year prison term.



Arrests in Yoshkar-Ola

More than a hundred people were detained in the course of a special police operation, which had been held on September 13, 2006 by the Federal Security Service Department of Mari El. The operation was aimed at capturing the Internet scammers who posted introduction profiles on different sites, portraying themselves as women who wanted to get married to foreigners. In those profiles they used other people's photos illegally. Such Mari "fiancees" regularly tapped money from their men, motivating this with the necessity to learn English or paying for the driving lessons.
According to the special services, this criminal business was built on the following scheme. The organizers rented apartments in the quietest districts of Yoshkar-Ola, turned them into small offices, equipping them with satellite Internet access and 7 or 10 computers. The role of "fiancees" corresponding with the foreigners were mostly played by the students, who got 10 or 15% of the amount they managed to tap form the clients.
In the result of the operation, the Federal Security Service Departement discovered 10 apartments, also arrested 8 people suspected as leaders of organized crime group. They are now placed in the detention jail. Large amounts of money were seized.
The case in fraud was brought up in accord with clause 159 on the Criminal Code of the Russian Federation. The investigation is being held.



Canadian Helps Bust Bride Scam
March 5, 2005

A Canadian man in love with an imaginary Russian woman has helped Yekaterinburg police arrest a couple behind an Internet scam that cheated love-struck foreigners out of thousands of dollars.
The Canadian citizen became worried about the bride-to-be he had met through the web site after she wrote to say that all the money he had sent her had been stolen by the Russian mafia, Yekaterinburg police said.
In fact, the bride was nothing but the criminal imagination of a local couple, police spokesman Valery Gorelikh said by telephone Thursday. The couple, which he refused to identify, ran a web site called Russian Girls that had consisted entirely of photos of nonexistent would-be brides.
The gullible would-be fiancees were scammed out of money through letters asking for money from the fake women, as well as by a section on the web site where the men could buy imaginary gifts for the imaginary women.
On hearing the news about the voracious mafia, the Canadian, whom Gorelikh also refused to identify, flew out to Russia to help his would-be bride. He contacted the British consulate in Yekaterinburg, who immediately sent him to the police. The police traced the couple when they continued to write letters to the Canadian.
Gorelikh said the couple would be charged with fraud under Article 159 of the Criminal Code, which carries a maximum sentence of 10 years in jail.
Complaints about fraudulent Russian bride web sites are common. The U.S. Embassy said last year that it was getting up to 10 calls per day from men who had been duped.
The embassy directs the men to (not Jim's), a web site that explains the various scams.
Another web site, (not Jim's, either), has a list 15 pages long of women suspected of having scammed foreign men, and offers a paid service for men to check out the person they think they are communicating with.
Despite the rise in cases, there have been very few convictions.


American Scammer Gets 5 Years!
June 24, 2004

A San Bernardino County man was sentenced to five years in federal prison yesterday for cheating men out of more than $1 million in a Russian bride scam.
The sentence was imposed from an April plea bargain in which Robert McCoy, 40, of Rancho Cucamonga admitted defrauding more than 250 men and agreed to pay back his victims $737,521. Prosecutors dropped other charges. Investigators positively identified 352 victims, but there may be more, said San Diego-based federal prosecutor Richard Cheng.
Anna Grountovaia, 32, McCoy's wife and the mother of his 2-year-old daughter, was sentenced to three years probation after having served 11 months in jail. Grountovaia, a Russian who met McCoy through the Internet before moving into his home, said she posed as a prospective bride in telephone calls with some of the victims, including several San Diego men. She pleaded guilty to fraud and may be deported. She met him after the scam was already under way and didn't play a big part in the scam, filling in when he needed a woman with a Russian accent, her lawyer said.
Most of the victims spoke with women in Russia, lawyer Timothy Scott said in court papers.
McCoy is a drug-addicted felon who sports gang tattoos and has earlier convictions on assault, kidnapping and weapons charges, according to court papers.
In court filings, prosecutor Cheng detailed the scheme this way:
McCoy met his victims through personal ads he placed or answered on Web sites including America Online and Match.com.In each case, he wrote e-mails posing as a Russian woman seeking love and sent pictures of a pretty model.Eventually, a visit would be arranged, and the victim was told a Russian dating service needed about $1,800 to pay for a visa and plane tickets. On the day the victim was expecting the woman to arrive, McCoy would write as an official from the fictitious dating service and said there was a problem: A new regulation required the woman to carry $1,500 cash to enter the United States.The service would lend her $500, but the victim needed to wire an additional $1,000.The men learned they were taken days later, when their e-mails were ignored or bounced back because the accounts were closed.
The FBI began investigating the scam after a Baltimore man told a London newspaper about the scheme.
McCoy regrets what he did and plans to use his prison time to get off drugs, said his lawyer, Arthur Greenspan, who blamed the drug addiction as a big reason for McCoy's behavior.
A Web site on Russian scams tells prospective suitors to beware any woman who asks for money after an online meeting.



Conned Australian fights back, with a president's help
January 4, 2004

Russian President Vladimir Putin has ordered the arrest of two alleged marriage agency fraudsters after a Sydney man wrote to him, saying he had been conned by a sexy young Russian brunette offering marriage over the internet.
Terry McCarthy, from Epping, was so outraged after allegedly being ripped off that he wrote directly to Mr Putin, declaring it was a matter of "Russian honour" that she be brought to justice. So touched was the Kremlin leader by the carefully crafted letter, he ordered police to track down the criminals, regardless of time or cost.
Investigations later revealed that the woman, part of a gang run by her Russian husband, had allegedly extracted $US1.5 million ($2 million) from as many as 1500 foreign men.
(Jim's comment - 1.5 MILLION dollars!!! From 1500 men!!!!!)
Not only have the couple since been caught, they face between five and 10 years in prison if convicted on all charges. Moscow police sources have confirmed that, on the basis of Mr McCarthy's letter, Mr Putin personally ordered them to find the woman and her associates.
A spokesman said: "Had it not been for Mr McCarthy contacting the President, there is no doubt they would have ripped off many more foreign lonely heart men who are blinded by sexy internet pictures."
When Mr McCarthy, 48, learned of his letter's impact, he said: "I can't believe it. When I wrote that letter, there was no way I ever imagined it would actually arrive on the President's desk . . . or that he would see it.
"I didn't do what I did for any glory. I wrote a lot of letters to a lot of people . . . it was a way of getting what had happened off my chest."

In 2000, Mr McCarthy searched internet photos and profiles for a possible Russian love match. A young, seductive brunette responded. They exchanged letters and, at her request, he sent cash so she could book a romantic trip to Australia to meet him.But she allegedly kept the money and he never heard from her again.
The brains behind the apparent scam was identified as Yuri Lazarev, 34, a photographer who took pictures of his wife, Anna, and other local women and posted them on the internet. Anna went by the fake name of Alfia Magdeeva, and she was the one Mr McCarthy fell for.
A police officer close to the investigation revealed that in most cases "Alfia" allegedly snared victims by posing as a virgin, who wanted to wait until she had met the right man. The other women Lazarev had taken pictures of "had no idea they were being offered around the world as marriage partners on the internet", he said."Nor did they know Lazarev and his wife were writing back to love-struck foreigners asking for money, in their names." But what the alleged scam artists failed to account for was Mr McCarthy's determination to pursue the matter as far up the Russian hierarchy as he could.

In his letter, he told Mr Putin: "I recently had $US650 stolen from me by an immoral cunning Russian woman, Alfia Magdeeva, who misrepresented herself on the internet."I don't ever expect to see my money again, but I would be grateful if you could make sure she declared this money as income (which I doubt) and so paid tax on it."I would much rather see my money going to the Russian Government to help the Russian people, than to criminals on the internet who would happily bring discredit on their country for personal gain."I have always admired the Russian people but this incident sours that feeling," the Australian's letter added.

The only indication something was being done at an official level came in 2002 when Australian Federal Police contacted Mr McCarthy and interviewed him on behalf of Moscow investigators. In September, Yuri and Anna Lazarev were finally captured in Chelyabinsk, a bleak city in the Russian Ural Mountains. Olga Pfefer, of Chelyabinsk police, said that of the 1500 foreign men allegedly cheated out of money by the gang between 2000 and 2002 they had found detailed biographical information on about 70. But she added: "Mr McCarthy was one of only 10 who provided police with full details so we could conduct the case against the couple."
A spokesman for Mr Putin's office said: "The complaint from Australia to the President was regarded as serious. It was passed on to the Russian Interior Ministry for the police to follow up in the correct way." Mr McCarthy said he did not want to be perceived as "the wronged naive loser who struck back" and neither did he want to see all Russian women on the internet "unfairly stereotyped". He said: "There are hundreds of Russian scammers on the internet but there are hundreds of thousands of Russian women, along with millions of women from other countries, with honest intentions and the usual dreams."



May 16, 2003, San Diego Press Office...

Internet Dating Scam Dismantled

San Diego, California - John R. Kingston, Acting Special Agent in Charge, San Diego Division of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, today announces the arrests of two individuals on charges of Conspiracy and Wire Fraud.

Robert L. McCoy, born January 8, 1964, and his wife, Anna V. Grountovaia, born October 12, 1971, were arrested at 6:00 a.m. on Tuesday, May 13, 2003, without incident at their home in Rancho Cucamonga, California. Their arrest was pursuant to an indictment filed by a Federal Grand Jury for operating a fraudulent Russian dating scheme via the Internet.

The arrests marked the culmination of an investigation conducted by the FBI, in coordination with the U. S. Postal Inspection Service, the U. S. Secret Service, the Internet Fraud Complaint Center, the National White Collar Crime Center, the Federal Trade Commission, and the Department of Justice.

Initiated in January of 2002 by the FBI's Cyber Crime Squad in San Diego, the investigation began after an individual reported he had been defrauded over the Internet. The victim informed the FBI that he had been induced to wire thousands of dollars to an agency which offered to expedite the travel of a Russian woman he had developed a relationship with over the Internet.

The indictment alleges that McCoy and Grountavaia posed as Russian women under various names and posted on-line ads seeking a serious relationship with men. At times, McCoy and Grountavaia would also respond to on-line ads of other men in order to induce them into developing on-line relationships. After the initial contact was established, McCoy and Grountavaia would then send e-mails and contact the victims by telephone to entice the victims into wiring monies to Russia.

In these communications, the indictment alleges that McCoy and Grountavaia, posing as a Russian woman, would claim to belong to an 'agency' that could help facilitate a visit to the victim's home country. Under the guise of this Russian agency, the indictment further alleges that McCoy and Grountavaia sent additional e-mails to the victims, instructing them to wire sums ranging from $1,790 to $1,850, so the agency could process flight arrangements, obtain visas, and secure placements for the Russian woman in student exchange programs. After the victims wired the money, believing the Russian woman would soon arrive, McCoy and Grountavaia would then cease all contact with the victims.

After processing at the FBI Building in San Diego, California, both McCoy and Grountavaia were arraigned before United States Magistrate Judge Louisa S. Porter on Tuesday, May 13, 2003. The case has been assigned to United States District Court Judge John S. Rhodes for trial.

If convicted, McCoy and Grountavaia face a maximum penalty of five years incarceration and a $250,000 fine on charges of Conspiracy to Commit Wire Fraud and twenty years incarceration and another $250,000 fine on the charges of Wire Fraud.
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post Dec 15 2006, 04:05 PM
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Group: Admin
Posts: 6,559
Joined: 26-July 04
Member No.: 1http://www.antiscam.org/scammers/index.shtml

Above is a couple hundred more FW allegedly trying to scam men.
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Name: Elena Abramova

City: Kirov
Country: Russia
Added: 2002-04-21
Updated: 2002-04-21
This person's strategy is a 'money for correspondence' scheme, but a little altered. She wants badly to keep exchanging letters with you and only you, but she owes money for two months to the Internet club (though started corresponding with you just week ago). Manager of the club kindly allowed her to write one more time, but she promised to bring the money in 3 days. About 100$ urgently needed!
Name: Zoya Chernonos

City: Kremenchug, Poltava area
Country: Ukraine
Added: 2002-04-20
Updated: 2002-08-17
Here is a classic example of 'money for correspondence' scam. In first letter you're already Darling, in second Honey and she kisses you, in third you're a Sweetheart and she loves you, but besides all that she gives you directions how to transfer her money.

Everything is designed for you to feel that you're one and only and very special, big age difference doesn't really matter, only your love, but you have to prove your intentions to be serious by helping her financially just after couple of letters. Please, check scammer TatianaBotvinkina Similarity is just obvious, probably it's a group of people working together or one person using different aliases.
Name: Tatiana Botvinkina

City: Kremenchug, Poltava area
Country: Ukraine
Added: 2002-04-20
Updated: 2003-01-14
Here is Tatiana Botvinkina, person using 'money for correspondence' scheme. Traditional scenario and traditional end of the story for those who didn't prove their care by sending her money. Please, check her strategy-twin SvetlanaFal Pattern is obvious, which makes us think that it might be a group of scammers working together or one person showing up under different appearances.
Name: Nina Karas

City: Nikolaev
Country: Ukraine
Added: 2002-04-20
Updated: 2002-11-23
Please, pay special attention to this case. Nina Karas is very sophisticated scammer and very merciless one. She would give you heartbreaking sob story at the same time making you think that you're her most special person and her last hope. And you would totally believe her. She is a really good psychologist, she will find your sensitive spots and won't hesitate to use them. She will leave your heart broken and your bank account couple hundred dollars lighter, so beware!
Name: Svetlana Koval

City: Krivoy Rog
Country: Ukraine
Added: 2002-04-20
Updated: 2002-04-20
Here is very interesting type of scammer - sincere one! She doesn't play brain games, no emotions involved and she executes her scheme quite quickly. She lets you know about her true desires and intentions in second letter. Think twice before getting involved, though perhaps some people would find her 'rules' acceptable.
Name: Alice Komisarova

City: Samara
Country: Russia
Added: 2002-05-29
Updated: 2002-12-06
Here is the classic 'accident scheme'. She becomes a victim of sudden accident and desperately needs your help. She writes that 'decided to appeal exactly to you' because she 'liked you very much' and all the hope she has is on you only. She adds 'I need no one else but you!'. Sounds nice, but you're not the only one who receive these lines. No doubt that this accident will keep 'happening' to her over and over again.
Name: Svetlana Gausheva

City: Saransk
Country: Russia
Added: 2002-06-04
Updated: 2002-06-04
Here is a scammer from Russia, city of Saransk, Svetlana Gausheva. Technique is plain - 'money for correspondence'. What is nice, she asks for money in the very first letter. At least you won't waste much time.
Name: Yana Melnichuk

City: Yoshkar-Ola
Country: Russia, Mari-El
Added: 2002-04-21
Updated: 2003-01-22
Scammer Yana Melnichuk from Yoshkar-Ola, Russia. After exchanging several letters and creating illusion of special and close relations, which she very successfully does she asks to send money for visa and tickets, then she falls ill and needs money to cover medical expenses. While she's allegedly in the hospital, her friend Ekaterina Valieva steps in and money to be transferred to her name. In another case Yana got 750 Euro for visa and simply disappeared afterwards.
Name: Lubov Grigorieva

City: Dnepropetrovsk
Country: Ukraine
Added: 2002-04-21
Updated: 2002-08-08
This is experienced and sophisticated scammer, we 'hunted' her ourselves. She(or he?) is very clever and involves you in relations you believe to be totally true and amazingly close and special. She sounds soooo absolutely credible and trustworthy, she sends you sweet little notes and nice cards. Then she says that she needs money for correspondence, because she is a student and Internet cafe is expensive and of course you're willing to help. How much she needs? 'You can send me as much as you want. It is up to you'. Ain't it smart?! Looks like an innocence itself, but why we're so sure she is a scammer? Because we happened to know that photos she used belong to beautiful Ukrainian model (by the way, her photos often used by different scammers, please, check our Photomodels section!). So, beware! Whoever it is, this person is clever. We're confident that if she'd discover that she is busted, she'd just change her email and set of photos and go right on.
Name: Ekaterina Strelkova

City: Yoshkar-Ola
Country: Russia, Mari-El
Added: 2002-04-22
Updated: 2002-04-25
This woman is very sophisticated, she sneaks step by step up into your heart, making perfect impression of sincerity which later turns to be false. Though she might make typical mistake that even experienced scammers often do and this mistake must be a warning for those who want to avoid being scammed. Here it is - using of generic 'carbon copies', letters that on first glance might seem very personal and sweet, but after second look they appear somewhat abstract and could easily have been addressed to somebody else. You may also notice that questions that you asked in previous letters are not answered. This case is a sample of 'visa/tickets money'
Go to the top of the pageReport Posthttp://www.goodwife.com/

There has been, and probably always will be, endless debate over what is a good wife. There is this article, supposedly from a May 1955 Housekeeping Monthly magagine, that speaks directly to this question. There are other sources as well that speak on the issue. One is from Aristotle, another is this one about "Do men really want a wife like June Cleaver." They bring up some very good points. It is one of those questions that heats up each side of the debate and truly has a different answer for each man. What do you want in a wife? Beauty? Brains? Charm? Home and family oriented? Strong willed? Independent? Docile? If you write out a list of the ten things that you must have in your life partner what would they be? Only you can decide the answers to this question.

We also have the question of a Western woman vs. a Foreign woman. This is commonly refered to as a Mail Order Bride or MOB. While I am sure that it would take a lot of stamps to ship a Mail Order Bride I think you might have a problem with customs! Which would you like? Many men have found exactly what they desired in a woman from another country. How did they do this and what are the pitfalls involved in this process? This is where Goodwife.com can help out. This site along with our sister sites Planet Love and Russian Women Discussion are all about the search for this woman and how to have a happy and successful and long lasting marrige to a foreign woman. Are there any good women left in the West? Sure there are. Are they easy to find? Not on your life!


We, as men, are more and more wanting to step back from the types of women we meet now. With many women taking on the "me first" feminist agenda and the man continuing to take a back seat to her desire for power and control many men are turned off by this and look back to having a more traditional woman as our partner. What does that mean? That is one hell of a good question.

Regardless of the origin or reality of the article itself it has come into focus over the last couple of years regarding the basic premise of the content. This is especially true when it comes to Western men seeking to find a wife from a foreign country (you know, that Mail Order Bride thing again). There are all sorts of reasons for this and as many fantasies as well. The truth of both of these is a varied as the men involved in the search to find a good wife and the women involved in the search to find a good husband.

So, what do we as men want in a woman, partner, friend, and wife? Do we want her to "fix us" after we are married? If we were good enough to marry in the first place then what is this bix fixation (pun intended) on fixing us? Do we want her to stop taking care of herself after we are married? (No need to bother looking good now right, I've already got him so I can quit trying to look my best and I can gain all the weight I want.) Do we want her to be the boss? Do we want her to put her career first? Do we want to come home to a bag of delivery food? Do we want to change everything about us that made us who we are? Do we want to spend our evenings and weekends taking the latest "relationship test" from some magazine to find out how inadequate we are? If you answered "yes" to any of this then you are in the wrong place. Go to Oprah.com or Dr.Phil.com and you will be much happier.



On the other side of this issue is the position taken by the radical feminists. Also known as "feminazis" for their attitudes and position regarding the roles of the man and the woman in a relationship. These "ladies" love to further thier agenda with tales of horror regarding Mail Order Brides. They also want a man to be sensitive to their needs and desires to the point of losing everything about him that makes him a man. Here is a version of this "guide" written by one of those women.

What I like about this, or rather what I find funny in a sad pathetic way, is how she basically says to pretend to care and listen to the man who she supposedly loves and wants to spend her life with as a way to further her agenda in having, getting more, and maintaining all control of the relationship. When I read this kind of "opinion" I am further convinced in my decision to get as far away as I can from this type of woman who has become the norm rather than the exception in our Western society.
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Scamming Women

Some men will claim scam when a woman simply decides to terminate a relationship in which he's invested a lot of money through travel, phone bills, and sometimes financial assistance for the lady. This may be due to a conscious or unconscious belief on the man's part that he is "buying" a woman. Those who really believe in mail order brides probably think they've been scammed when any woman they want decides she doesn't want him. In my own personal experience, I encountered one "woman" (it was most likely a man using the lady's photos) out of 150 who was shady. There are indeed scamming women, and men pretending to be women. The countries from which the majority of the ladies come from generally have a considerably higher level of corruption and petty cons are quite common in these places. A good rule of thumb for avoiding scams is to not send money. Pretty simple, but some men rely on their money to impress a woman. Not a good idea.

Signs that your lady may be trying to scam you-

*
She's "in love" with you after only a few letters/emails

Until you've met in person and spent time together, any claims of love should be suspect. Even if she seems genuine about it, you should seriously consider moving on to a more rational, level-headed person who wants to take the time to get to know someone REALLY well before making ANY type of commitment.

*
She needs money to secure your lodging for a visit

I had this one tried on me personally. There's no need to send money to secure a hotel, etc. for your visit. If she suggests this, be careful. Especially if she asks you to send cash.

*
My mother/grandmother/son/daughter needs an operation

It's not appropriate at all in any culture I know of to ask a stranger you've never met to help you.

*
She offers to come visit you

But of course, she needs money for a visa, airline ticket, etc. In many of these countries, very few ladies can qualify for a tourist visa. Perhaps some are niave enough to believe they can get one, but more likely they simply want the cash.

*
She wants to study English

Unless you've met in person and things are serious, you have no reason to be paying for her to study English. If you do decide to pay for this, make sure the fees are realistic. Costs should be considerably less than what you'd expect to pay here in the US. I paid for my wife's English lessons while she was waiting for the fiancee visa in Colombia. The cost was $50 per month. Some men have been told these lessons costs upwards of $500 per month and have paid it, BEFORE EVER MEETING THE LADY! Trying to impress her with their financial assistance no doubt. I doubt the women were impressed with these men's intelligence!
Resources listing scamming, and potentially scamming women-

* Firstdream.com A page dedicated to exposing potential East European scammers

Scamming Agencies

*
Email forwarding

There are plenty of legitimate, above board agencies offering email translation and forwarding. However, this method of operation can easily be used to con men out of money. You never know exactly who you're writing to! Be sure if you use this type of service that the agency will not filter out her address and/or telephone number. Ask her for those VERY early in the correspondence. If they are not forthcoming..... run, don't walk, away. When the service has no other means of generating revenue than the email forwarding and translation, they have to remain between you and the lady in order to continue the cash stream. As soon as you bypass them and start communicating directly with the lady, the agency's out of a job. Sometimes those "free" contact services where you pay nothing for addresses can be pretty expensive when each two way exchange costs you money.

o The letters are completely impersonal, and she does not seem to be responding to the questions you've brought up in a previous letter. Maybe "she's" not writing the letters. They could be general form letters with little other than a sentence or two changed to make it seem legitimate.

o My Mother/Grandmother/Son/Etc. needs an operation

*
Agency plants

Many of the free, or nearly free, on-line international dating services have ads placed there by agencies. Typically, the women start corresponding with men and then inform them that they can't pay their internet access fees and that if the man wants to continue corresponding with her, he should pay $$ to the agency providing e-mail services for the lady.

Sometimes the ladies aren't even aware that the agency placed their personal ad at one of these sites. Sometimes the lady doesn't exist at all but is rather a pretty face with an e-mail staff ready to write back to men who fall for them. This is particularly a problem with ladies from the FSU and some of the free or low cost sites have even had

Guess who are the people invloved as pimps in the child sex trade? That would be female FW!

The producers and investigators arrive across from what looks like a local café, but it's really a brothel. The owner is a woman who goes by the name Madam Lang. She's eager to do business.  She leads the group through the café and up a back staircase to meet some girls for hire. And when she says they're girls, she means it literally: young girls, younger than we even imagined. And as an extra attraction, she says they're still virgins. ----msnbc


Title: Pbs Television Talk Show "debate" On Imbra: Only Women On Panel
Post by: tristan on December 17, 2006, 10:59:33 PM
Excellent information, AWS.  And what makes this most significant is that American men are required by IMBRA to provide highly sensitive details of his life to COMPLETE STRANGERS, i.e. women that the men want to write to.

Since some of these women are fronts for organized criminals, IMBRA needlessly exposes American men to the possibility of significant financial harm.

If Congress did its job properly (and 73% of the public thinks that it does not do its job properly) they would make laws to PROTECT American men, if any such laws are necessary, rather than to EXPOSE THEM TO GREATER HARM.


Title: Pbs Television Talk Show "debate" On Imbra: Only Women On Panel
Post by: VeteransAbroad on December 18, 2006, 01:54:10 AM
[You never know exactly who you're writing to! Be sure if you use this type of service that the agency will not filter out her address and/or telephone number. Ask her for those VERY early in the correspondence. If they are not forthcoming..... run, don't walk, away.]

This is why IMBRA must be defeated. An American must immediately have the right to know the name, phone number and address of the supposed women he is contacting. That is what has always made the industry so compelling and that is why the scammers are mostly on Match.com and other sites that concentrate on paranoid anonymity.

IMBRA is about legislating American paranoia despite the fact that men have known the home addresses of the women they wanted to court for millions of years. This American paranoia with men knowing a woman's address is just plain wrong...especially when legislated.

If you know a woman's home address, you can have flowers sent by an agency NOT connected with the website you bought the contact information from. If the other agency says that the person doesn't exist, you've just saved yourself tons of time and thousands of dollars and trauma.

And it is NOT stalker activity to send flowers to any woman in any country except the paranoid USA.

The US government cannot constitutionally legislate that the initial correspondance must be done by anonymous email (which is what IMBRA does). In fact, it is the anonymous paranoid environment of Match.com that is attracting so many scammers.

With the scammers on their way to jail more and more often in Russia, all the more reason for a man to be able to quickly check that someone exists...which means knowing exactly who she is.

Good advice: If you have doubts about a woman, give me her phone number. I speak Russian very well. I will call her and if she does not remember who you are (because she needs to know which of the suckers I am calling for) then she's a fraud.

I should be able to call "because Phil wanted me to say hi for him" and she will be so excited and know key things about Phil.


Title: Pbs Television Talk Show "debate" On Imbra: Only Women On Panel
Post by: Bugman803 on December 18, 2006, 06:48:50 PM
Quote from: NewTaylor
A basic concern that I have is with false abuse charges.  Based upon the government’s own study on the “mail order bride” industry, the government believes that many of the foreign women who are marrying American men are doing so for citizenship and personal gain.  Love isn’t in the equation. [1]

IMBRA will facilitate false abuse claims.  An American man potentially risks everything by marrying a “mail order bride”.  I don’t think that this situation is by accident.

It may be that women in these “mail order bride” marriages do suffer higher rates of abuse.  The simple fact of the matter is that we don’t know, because there aren’t any reliable statistics on this subject.

Any meaningful government regulation of this industry should protect both the men and the women involved in the process.  Regulation is needed, but not in the form of IMBRA.  IMBRA assumes that all of the abuses in the process are coming from men and the “marriage brokers”.  That simply isn’t correct.  IMBRA should be amended, so that it provides some protections to men who are being taken advantage of.  I do agree with Megan Beyer that some of these foreign women are using American men.

Reference:
1.   Robert J. Scholes, Ph.D., "The "Mail-Order Bride" Industry and Its Impact on            U.S. Immigration,"http://uscis.gov/graphics/aboutus/repsstudies/Mobappa.htm

New Taylor has accurately identified  a very important issue with the statement, "The simple fact of the matter is we don't know, because there aren't any reliable statistics on this subject".

More than likely we will never have any reliable on abuse rates of foreign women who marry men through matchmaking organizations.  In order to undersand this statement one must look at the reasons why there are no accurate statistics  by specifically  examining abuse rates of foreign immigrant women who met their husbands via a marriage broker.

Reason number one) The proponents  of IMBRA have FAILED to define what domestic violence is and so they can easily manipulate gullable politicans and the public.  Even if they define what constitutes domestic violence they will change their defination (quietly) and then apply one set of data to a completely different circumstance that has no relavancy in order to deceive the audience. For example Senator Cantwell  cited a study of high abuse rates of hispanic women as a reason to regulate IMB's while deceptively failing to mention the study involved women who did NOT met their husband via a International matchmaking organization.

Reason number two) The proponents of IMBRA conduct studies that are biased using procedures that lack any reliable scientific  procedures or ethical means. For example they often conduct informal telephone surveys using "One sided" questions an atrocious methoid  that clearly lacks credability and responsible ethics.

Reason number three) Domestic violence can be classified under a myriad of crimes making statistical tracking of "domestic abuse" almost impossible. There is no one single crime denoted simply as "domestic violence" but rather domestic violence could be classified as "disordely conduct, assault,  murder, stalking.... etc.)

Reason number four) Domestic violence is often not reported which further clouds the picture

Reason number five)  Many imigrant women will file false charges of abuse and the women victims don't have to prove anything. They get  permanent legal resident status automatically in exchange for filing false abuse charges.
( More than likely the radical extremists will likely use these false and misleading statistics in the future as a reason to regulate IMB's).


The only reliable indicator of domestic violence is the "Intimate partner violence rate" because murder is always reported and is statistically only denoted as one crime- murder.  This makes statistical tracking  feasible. We know that there have been 3 foreign women murdered by their husbands in IMB faciliated relationships over the past 12 years; meanshile 16,800 American women residents have been killed in the same time frame.


Title: Pbs Television Talk Show "debate" On Imbra: Only Women On Panel
Post by: Bugman803 on December 18, 2006, 08:25:13 PM
Sorry, for clarification purposes that last paragraph should read, "The Intimiate Partner Murder Rate".

Dave


Title: Pbs Television Talk Show "debate" On Imbra: Only Women On Panel
Post by: imbraisevil on December 18, 2006, 10:02:10 PM
Quote from: Tristan Laurent
Excellent information, AWS.  And what makes this most significant is that American men are required by IMBRA to provide highly sensitive details of his life to COMPLETE STRANGERS,

That is what makes me so mad about this law. It puts American men at enormous risk financially and physically if FW are unscrupulous or worse not even women but men in the mafia pretending to be women available for marriage. The law is a civil rights violation. No way will I give my personal information to strangers from another country. That would be insanity.


Title: Pbs Television Talk Show "debate" On Imbra: Only Women On Panel
Post by: VeteransAbroad on December 19, 2006, 01:14:43 AM
Does AFA do this now? They used the wrong man's name when I used them this fall but maybe they "fixed" that and my real name is going out to Boris and Igor. :-0


Title: Pbs Television Talk Show "debate" On Imbra: Only Women On Panel
Post by: Bugman803 on December 19, 2006, 04:45:02 AM
Quote from: VeteransAbroad
Does AFA do this now? They used the wrong man's name when I used them this fall but maybe they "fixed" that and my real name is going out to Boris and Igor. :-0


The International Romance Regulation Act allows gives foreign women a false sense of security.  I heard a rumor that OJ Simpson filled out the form that the marriage agency supplies and he lied on the form. (Whats to prevent him from lying- there are no penal;ties for lying on the form). If he wants to bring the lady to the United States when he files the fiancee petition form he can honestly claim that he has never been convicted of any crimes.
Some people have suggested that IMBRA provides protection.
The central question here  (this  question is directed to the various newspaper editors covering IMBRA) Where is the protection.????


Title: Pbs Television Talk Show "debate" On Imbra: Only Women On Panel
Post by: frank johnson on December 19, 2006, 07:48:53 AM
New Taylor said "IMBRA should be amended, so that it provides some protections to men who are being taken advantage of. I do agree with Megan Beyer that some of these foreign women are using American men."

Like I keep saying this is the 2nd phase of Layli's plan. The foreign women MUST be "screened" in order to "protect" American men who are too stupid to know if they are being taken advantage of. These uneducated men just don't know any better, so TJC will look after them too!

How? Well, the International Friendship Agencies will be required to investigate every woman they list. Complete and thorough background checks including checks of police records in every country, information on every place they have ever lived, their family history, information on any children they have, etc. etc. etc. including fingerprints and lie detector test results too.

This information must be given to the American man who is interested in her BEFORE she is allowed to contact him and get HIS permission to do so.

Wait a second...how can this be done though when the man has to provide HIS information to HER first before HE can say hi after getting HER permission? It is a catch 22 situation and CAN'T be done and that is the whole point.

It would be virtually impossible for an agency to be able to do such searches in foreign countries, wouldn't it?

"That's right!" says Layli "Hee hee hee. I have had this all thought out and planned for a long time! What better way to stop these un-feminized, non-Bahai women from coming here then to "protect" them by stopping the men from being able to say hi to them, while at the same time "protect" the men by stopping the women from being able to say hi to them too? Brilliant, even if I say so myself! Hee Hee Hee, Ha Ha Ha, cackle cackle cackle! Plus I make more money from the "men's protection" racket too!"
---------------------------------------------------

And AWS made another one of his GREAT posts too. You are correct when you say that the feminists love to promote the myth that these women are just trying to come to America via green card. Of course they don't actually KNOW any of these women but in their self-righteousness somehow "know" that these women are up to no good!

You ARE correct AWS, at least when it comes to the majority of Asian women, that they would be very happy if the men moved to their country. Does anyone think these family oriented ladies WANT to be separated from their families? Their move to another country is a sacrifice they make in order to be with their man (something an American woman would NEVER do! Hell they wouldn't move next door if it meant inconveniencing themselves.)

AWS then shows a lot of horror stories involving Russian women and scams. I don't doubt that a lot if not all are probably true.

However I do not really know much about Russian women (or East European women) and I will be the first to admit it, therefore it would be unfair for me to comment on any scams from these countries.

I DO know Asian women, however, VERY VERY well. In general terms only, I do know their cultures, their traits, their moral principles, their intentions and their sincerity, etc.

Every country has golddiggers. Some way more than others (America), some way less than others (countries other than America.) Remember, America is THE land of golddiggers! Way more scams going on here by female criminals than anywhere else. WAY MORE!

Yet what laws are there in place to protect men from these American female golddigers and scammers that are so extremely prevelant in our society?

In Asia however, a golddigger stands out like a sore thumb. WHY? Because the overwhelming majority of Asian women are very sincere and honest in their intentions and this is the TRUTH. Even if they come from poor families, they still have strong values, in fact some of the nicest women come from the poorest families. In the American feminist's mind, however, if a person is poor, then they must be a thief. WRONG!

Even if a lady is poor, she will use her own money to contact a man if she is truly interested in him and will NOT ask for money as she has pride.

This is one of the main reason why I like the "old-fashioned" way of writing letters and making phone calls as opposed to emails where you never really know who are writing to.

A handwritten letter is time consuming, true, but it is far more PERSONAL and when you are dealing with friendship which can lead to potential marriage, it doesn't get any more personal than that.

You can see each other's handwriting. You can exchange REAL photos, You can open up a lot more than you normally would about each other. You REALLY get to know each other and by the time you actually meet in person, it is just the frosting on the cake because by that time you DO know each other.

When you have read a number of actual letters from Asian ladies, you get a feel for them. On the RARE ocassion when a golddigger may come along, she will stand out like such a sore thumb it is painfully obvious.

AWS mentions some of the things a golddigger may say like asking for money for postage, school, a sick parent, phone bills, etc. etc. They are NOT going to waste a lot of their time writing letters before they will do this and this makes them even more obvious too.

ANY guy with an ounce of common sense will know to drop this girl like a hot cake no matter how attractive she may be. You can also assume she is writing to as many men as possible. Think with your brain NOT your dick!

Now an exception to this will be in the case of Filipina ladies. For many of them, postage is expensive by our standards and if you have been writing to a lady for a while and feel comfortable with her, it is a nice gesture to offer to send a couple of bucks from time to time to help out with postage (or IRCs - International Reply Coupons - which you can buy from the post office and she can exchange them for stamps in her country.)

99 9/10 % of men have enough common sense not to be taken. They know they cannot "buy" a tourist visa for the lady - she either qualifies or she doesn't - PERIOD! They know NO travel agency can just "get" it for her for a price. They know, depending on the Friendship Agency they use that the ladies MUST be able to speak and write English to join (letters verify this easily) and that the Philippines is the THIRD LARGEST ENGLISH SPEAKING COUNTRY IN THE WORLD!

Also there are no organized scams going on in Asia that I'm aware of.

This is why I like the old-fashioned method of writing letters. It is way harder for scammers to do their thing. Too time consuming and costly.

Now when it comes to the internet and email, however, I realize it is VERY convenient. Impersonal but convenient. You can contact your loved one cheaply and quickly. However guys have to keep in mind that it is also very convenient for scammers out there. You may think you are "talking" to someone named Natasha in Russia but in reality you may talking to a guy named Boris who will soon be asking you to send money to his paypal account for more photos to be taken to send you, etc. Not only that but Boris may have 1,000 potential suckers on his email list. Of course there are plenty of female scammers out there too.

However I realize that there may be bad stuff going on in Russia but I'm sure the majority of the women, just like regular people everywhere, are nice ladies and are sincere and honest.

AWS is right though that men just need to use common sense. This alone would eliminate enough scams to end them.

Perhaps I should repeat it. IF A WOMAN ASKS FOR MONEY, END IT RIGHT THEN!
-------------------------------------------

This is why it is nice using the services of a agency where you can actually talk to them and get advice, which if they have been around for a decent length of time, they will have plenty of. These places actually care about their female and male members and want the best for them as opposed to places that only want your money. It is called honesty and integrity and no "agency certification" by some place trying to make an extra buck is necessary. The female and male members do the certifying, take my word for it.
--------------------------------------------

Also never forget the motive behind bogus entities like Tahirih Justice Center who claim to be concerned about "protecting" these women.

That is complete and utter BS! Their main goals are to STOP these women from coming here and marrying American men and to MAKE MONEY, NOT necessarly in that order.

The more confusion they can add into the mix, like making the men suspect the women are frauds, making the women think the men are all abusive, making ludicrous "rules" for the agencies and their clients, the more they acheive these goals.

You want to know who the REAL golddiggers and frauds are out there? It is the feminist groups who CON politicians and donors into believing there is a problem with false "facts and stats" combined with hysteria and enough nagging to get the people controlling the money to give it to them in order to get them off their backs!

THERE IS 1,000 TIMES MORE FRAUD AND ABUSE GOING ON WITH THESE "WOMEN'S PROTECTION" FEMINIST GROUPS OUT THERE IN ONE DAY THAN COULD EVER BE DONE WITH FOREIGN WOMEN IN A CENTURY!

THESE feminist groups are the ones who should be investigated and regulated, NOT regular men and women who are simply seeking friendship and a potential meaningfull relationship with (gasp) someone from another country that may not be feminized by women's groups with an agenda of their own political correctness!

You reporters out there! You want a REAL story? Try investigating Tahirih Justice Center and their FRAUDULENT ACTIVITIES! THAT is where the REAL criminal action is happening!


Title: Pbs Television Talk Show "debate" On Imbra: Only Women On Panel
Post by: VeteransAbroad on December 19, 2006, 09:23:56 AM
Frank is correct. We don't want the US Congress getting ideas that foreign women need to be investigated before they can post their beautiful photos on the Internet and give us their home address and phone numbers.

The purpose of our enemies is to stop social globalization. Pretending that rich men with passports are more abusive than the average American slob is only one tactic toward the overall goal. They can create another organization and ask for HVX's support that will shut foreign women down as a "bunch of scammers" and still achieve their overall goal.

That said, thanx AWS and HVX for the relevant input about the scammer problem.


Title: Pbs Television Talk Show "debate" On Imbra: Only Women On Panel
Post by: VeteransAbroad on December 19, 2006, 12:09:02 PM
Announcement: As a result of this video and the shameless behavior of a Bush Administration official (Karen Czerneck) and Iraq War advisor (Michelle Bernard)....specific high level Senators will be looking at ODR in the next few days.

Please edit any of your posts or signatures that might make you appear the slightest bit sexist or misogynist. Point out anything I ever said that doesn't belong on ODR as well.

There are two signatures of two members that probably should be changed although they are meant as jokes.

By Clean-Up, I don't mean make ODR politically correct, but there are phrases that can be editted.

Fem can be changed to Radfem here and there. "American woman" can be changed to "American Radfem" etc.

Everybody can edit any post they ever made. Just hit the edit button.


Title: Pbs Television Talk Show "debate" On Imbra: Only Women On Panel
Post by: johnreeds on December 19, 2006, 10:18:43 PM
Quote from: Frank Johnson
I DO know Asian women, however, VERY VERY well. In general terms only, I do know their cultures, their traits, their moral principles, their intentions and their sincerity, etc.

In Asia however, a golddigger stands out like a sore thumb. WHY? Because the overwhelming majority of Asian women are very sincere and honest in their intentions and this is the TRUTH. Even if they come from poor families, they still have strong values, in fact some of the nicest women come from the poorest families. In the American feminist's mind, however, if a person is poor, then they must be a thief. WRONG!
I know Asian women quite well in specific terms. Ones who are motivated by money will make that clear very early on, in fact the litmus test is virtually iron-clad: if she makes any kind of financial request, REGARDLESS OF THE REASON, then you have all the information you need. I do not see them investing n a long-running ploy tp hook you then drain you later after marriage.  

A good girl will NEVER initiate a request for money. Most will not accept offers, unless you are on very good terms already and it is for a specific purpose.


Title: Pbs Television Talk Show "debate" On Imbra: Only Women On Panel
Post by: NewTaylor on December 20, 2006, 02:27:14 AM
The INS identified two basic problems in the international dating industry.  Some of the American men are looking for women that they can control.  In addition, some of the foreign women who are seeking American husbands are more interested in American citizenship and money, than love [1]. This agency has dealt with the process of romance visas for years.  I think that they are correct.

The feminist lobby has selectively quoted from the INS report.  They are only dealing with the problems that the INS found regarding men; and they are dealing with these problems in a completely asinine manner.

No person wants the detailed disclosures that IMBRA requires at the point of initial contact.  On the other hand, when applying for a visa, most intelligent people would want a background check.  Background checks are very common in our society.  They are done for good reasons.  We already do background checks on foreign women when they enter the visa application process.

What I meant about protecting men is a common sense approach that deals with the problems that the INS identified.  First, if there is a situation of a man abusing his wife, the man should be prosecuted, and the women should be sent back to her own country.  The only type of woman who wouldn’t report such abuse for fear of being deported is obviously a “visa-seeker”.  If you build into a law an incentive that rewards women with citizenship for making abuse charges, you are probably going to see an increase in false abuse charges being made.  Particularly since our government has found that the motivations of some of these foreign women are ignoble.  IMBRA will facilitate visa fraud, by encouraging women to make false abuse charges.

Residency requirements should be expanded from 2 to 7 years for citizenship to be granted to foreign women who marry American men.  I believe that this would discourage many foreign women who are seeking to use American men to gain citizenship and wealth.

The romance visa should be expanded from 3 months to 1 year, so that the two individuals have a greater opportunity to get to know one another.  In addition, there should only be a review process implemented after 2 visas have been granted.  I think that regulatory oversight over how visas are issued is a good idea.  This would ensure that American men aren’t abusing the visa process.  On the other hand, there should not be a “de facto” ban on more than two visas being issued.  IMBRA clearly intends to place a cap on the number of visas (two) that can be issued.

I don’t know why men would not want protection from bad women.  After all it is our government as well.  It makes me sick to hear Megan Beyer state that she feels sorry for foreign women who are “visa-seekers”.  These women are using other human beings for their own selfish ends.  That is deplorable behavior.

Any sincere effort to regulate the process for the benefit of both American men and foreign women would not make the process of meeting foreigners more difficult.  The feminists are not sincere in my opinion.  As far as feminists claiming that they need to protect American men from foreign women.  I wouldn’t worry too much about that.  They will never make such a claim.  It would be heresy for them.  It would be much more likely that Hell would freeze over than that occurring.

Reference:
1. Robert J. Scholes, Ph.D., "The "Mail-Order Bride" Industry and Its Impact on            U.S. Immigration,"http://uscis.gov/graphics/aboutus/repsstudies/Mobappa.htm


Title: Pbs Television Talk Show "debate" On Imbra: Only Women On Panel
Post by: VeteransAbroad on December 20, 2006, 10:52:30 AM
Background checks may be used rarely, but never in history since Nazi Germany have they been used to determine if two people can marry or not.

At least we are all in agreement that they are not needed for two people to say hello or not, and that means that if a woman wants her Hotmail or Mail.ru email address given out to just anyone, then she should have the power to chose her own level of security and that information can be given out to just anyone.

If Hell would freeze over before a group said something that would make them more credible...does one really think that American can remain a superpower? If one group can operate on such a low level of maturity and honesty...what does that say of all groups in the US?

By the way, the first paragraph could be misunderstood. When one says that some men want someone they can "control"...what the heck does that really mean and is that "some" 1% or 7% of American men?

We know that 7% of American men beat their wives. Does this mean that they want to "control" them? Maybe. But I am not comfortable with radical feminist language and <b>the INS official was clearly an ideological feminist who showed disappointment at the actual statistic of 1% abuse rates.</b> God help us that we have ideological feminists in US government positions. Some organization needs to be set up specifically to get them removed like communists were removed. ;-)

Now, if 7% want someone they can control, whether she is domestic or foreign, then 93% want someone they are sexually attracted to maybe?

Or you can break down that 93% to say that some of us want someone who isn't self-centered.

www.veteransabroad.com


Title: Pbs Television Talk Show "debate" On Imbra: Only Women On Panel
Post by: imbraisevil on December 24, 2006, 07:00:59 AM
And AWS made another one of his GREAT posts too. You are correct when you say that the feminists love to promote the myth that these women are just trying to come to America via green card. Of course they don't actually KNOW any of these women but in their self-righteousness somehow "know" that these women are up to no good!

Feminism is either a malicious fabrication of events (filing a fasle police report is supposed to be a felony) or a bunch of half-truths stated over and over by people in positions of power and influence.

Here is one half-truth  repeated the fembots: there is a sex trade that needs to be regulated (like parts of Nevada already does) only it's not in the USA. The sex trade is controlled by the Russian mafia in Eastern Europe and mostly by female pimps ( many are restaurant owners) in Asian countries. That is right, in Asian countries the sex trade business is managed mostly by females and not males. IMBRA tries to paint all USA citizens as pimps and whorehouse operators due to foreigners taking advantage of their own and enslaving some of them in prostitution rings.

Men seeking a foreign wife are not looking for prostitutes as the fembots keep implying. For an American  man to find a prostitute he need only to become a corporate manager in the USA where there are plenty of women who will do nasty things for as little as a dollar an hour raise. I have seen more than one billion dollar corporation fail because the managers only hired and promoted people that were willing to sleep with them. My corporate horror stories are backed by sworn testimony by the way.

Look at the current Miss USA and Miss Teen USA. They are staying in Trump's building and living the high life literally even though their behavior is suspect to put it gently. What is the difference between sleeping your way to raises and bonuses working in a corporation or being a street prostitute in the USA? The only difference is sleeping your way up in a corporation with willing partners is legal and can net you more money than a street prostitute. I used to see corporate managers simply pick the best looking female applicants, offer them $50,000 a year jobs at ages 18-22 and play the who will sleep with corporate managers or executives numbers game. Hire 40 women at $50,000 a year (pay them with stock holder's money which is illegal but happens more than people think) and then a few will sleep with managers out of greed, desperation or actual threats of termination.

One should note that pro-IMBRA crusaders were given a million dollar grant to spread lies and make back room deals with judges. They even hire or bring in foreign "models" at their functions which the atrocious IMBRA law conveniently allows. What do you think these "models" do when they go to the bathroom or sneak away with a judge? I think you get the picture. IMBRA conveniently lets high paid foreign "models" into the USA without much hassle. These models are often  used by the pro-IMBRA crowd in nefarious ways. How much prostitution does a $1,000,0000 grant like the TJC received buy? I will let you decide for yourself.

The real sex trade in the USA is done at the corporate level. Once again look at Miss Teen USA and Miss USA while keeping in mind that Miss Universe is owned by the same corporations. The Miss Universe pageant does not have any problem getting their foreign contestants visas as they fall under the "model" category which IMBRA allows. Are you all starting to see how the IMBRA game is being played? I have seen women that displayed the behavior if the current Miss USA routinely make $80,000 a year if they worked in corporate America.  I have also seen the same type of behavior with street prostitutes. No, I do not hire street prostitutes. I have lived in small towns where people knew who the street prostitutes were and who had high paying corporate jobs and it was often hard to tell the difference by their general behavoir traits.  

What the fembots did with IMBRA is a civil rights violation law that implies that all people who are not wealthy  and who can't afford to hire foreign "models" are sexual predators and that all sex with FW amounts to attempted rape. I literally know hundreds of men on a first name basis  who want to marry FW who in fact are too nice and honorable for most American women and their consistently disgusting behavior. Most American men seeking foreign women (FW) to marry are in fact too gentle and too virtuous to be comfortable around AW vipers.


You ARE correct AWS, at least when it comes to the majority of Asian women, that they would be very happy if the men moved to their country. Does anyone think these family oriented ladies WANT to be separated from their families? Their move to another country is a sacrifice they make in order to be with their man (something an American woman would NEVER do! Hell they wouldn't move next door if it meant inconveniencing themselves.


Not one single potential foreign bride I have established a relationship with has wanted to live in the USA. They all said they want me to move to their country. The "she only wants a green card" angle from the pro-IMBRA facists is a myth. FW want to be with their families, friends, have access to health car and take vacations cheaply in their own countries. Most FW do not want to be American corporate or whores.

It's true most American women will not do anything to help a good and humble man if it inconveniences themselves. I recently took a vacation. In years passed and before I figured out the sheer evilness of the fembots I would insist on paying everything on vacations for the woman. Now I simply ask that AW pay their own way. Guess what? No AW has vacationed with me in the last three years! Some of the women who wanted to come with me if I paid for their trip make $200,000 plus a year and they still won't pay their way! Talk about prostitution being rampant in the USA among American women. Sheesh!

AWS then shows a lot of horror stories involving Russian women and scams. I don't doubt that a lot if not all are probably true.

However I do not really know much about Russian women (or East European women) and I will be the first to admit it, therefore it would be unfair for me to comment on any scams from these countries.


I doubt 100% are true but let's say a super low estimate of 50% are true. That is still thousands and thousands of documented horror stories of men who are USA citizens being taking advantage of by foreigners. IMBRA is disastrous physically, emotionally and financially to decent USA citizens wishing to enrich their cultural liives by marrying a foreign woman. IMBRA is also a national security risk due to the ease at which unscrupulous foreigners or even Americans posing as foreigners can take advantage of or kill American citizens after obtaining personal details about them.

I DO know Asian women, however, VERY VERY well. In general terms only, I do know their cultures, their traits, their moral principles, their intentions and their sincerity, etc.

Every country has golddiggers. Some way more than others (America), some way less than others (countries other than America.) Remember, America is THE land of golddiggers! Way more scams going on here by female criminals than anywhere else. WAY MORE!


That has been my observation as well.

Yet what laws are there in place to protect men from these American female golddigers and scammers that are so extremely prevelant in our society?


Very few if any. Many laws in the USA are in place to take advantage of men using reverse discrimination. If a law is created by a feminist then you can be it will be applied to keep good men down and let evil flourish.

In Asia however, a golddigger stands out like a sore thumb. WHY? Because the overwhelming majority of Asian women are very sincere and honest in their intentions and this is the TRUTH. Even if they come from poor families, they still have strong values, in fact some of the nicest women come from the poorest families. In the American feminist's mind, however, if a person is poor, then they must be a thief. WRONG!

Cash is king in the USA and females that work in corporate America are doing very well using sex or looks as a tools for promotions and bonuses. Same as street prostitutes do.

Even if a lady is poor, she will use her own money to contact a man if she is truly interested in him and will NOT ask for money as she has pride.

Funny how many men seeking FW don't care about about how much money she has. This is a concept that enrages the pro-IMBRA crowd. The foreign woman I will marry will have to meet my character standards. I don't care how much money she has. Most of my friends seeking FW are the same way. I will marry because of love and admiration that money can't buy. That is if the pro-IMBRA crowd does not stone me to death for believing in love and admiration of character over the the love of money or power.


This is one of the main reason why I like the "old-fashioned" way of writing letters and making phone calls as opposed to emails where you never really know who are writing to.

A handwritten letter is time consuming, true, but it is far more PERSONAL and when you are dealing with friendship which can lead to potential marriage, it doesn't get any more personal than that.

You can see each other's handwriting. You can exchange REAL photos, You can open up a lot more than you normally would about each other. You REALLY get to know each other and by the time you actually meet in person, it is just the frosting on the cake because by that time you DO know each other.

When you have read a number of actual letters from Asian ladies, you get a feel for them. On the RARE ocassion when a golddigger may come along, she will stand out like such a sore thumb it is painfully obvious.


Here is a link to the DLIhttp://www.dli.army.mil They do language analysis for the CIA and of course for the different branches of the USA military. They are specialists at determining personalities through speech patterns and through typed or written paragraph structure analysis.

A cultured and wise man will never give out personal information willy nilly. A wise man must first determine if the person he wants to get involved with is honest enough to be trusted. IMBRA is a national security risk as there is no way to determine if the person one is writing is sincere or honest. I do not need to know the true name or address at the beginning of any relationship with an FW. I analyze her sentence structure and listen very carefully to the cadence and tone of her voice on the phone. This takes time. As much as two years can be spent trying to figure out the true motivations of someone. IMBRA takes away the right of every USA citizen to be cautious and careful when seeking a foreign wife or foreign husband.

AWS mentions some of the things a golddigger may say like asking for money for postage, school, a sick parent, phone bills, etc. etc. They are NOT going to waste a lot of their time writing letters before they will do this and this makes them even more obvious too.

ANY guy with an ounce of common sense will know to drop this girl like a hot cake no matter how attractive she may be. You can also assume she is writing to as many men as possible. Think with your brain NOT your dick!


Because IMBRA was designed and implanted by feminists it lacks common sense.

Now an exception to this will be in the case of Filipina ladies. For many of them, postage is expensive by our standards and if you have been writing to a lady for a while and feel comfortable with her, it is a nice gesture to offer to send a couple of bucks from time to time to help out with postage (or IRCs - International Reply Coupons - which you can buy from the post office and she can exchange them for stamps in her country.)

99 9/10 % of men have enough common sense not to be taken. They know they cannot "buy" a tourist visa for the lady - she either qualifies or she doesn't - PERIOD! They know NO travel agency can just "get" it for her for a price. They know, depending on the Friendship Agency they use that the ladies MUST be able to speak and write English to join (letters verify this easily) and that the Philippines is the THIRD LARGEST ENGLISH SPEAKING COUNTRY IN THE WORLD!


IMBRA does not allow the proper time or resources for USA citizens to find out if their potential foreign life long partner is legitimate or sincere which unfairly and brutally puts USA citizens seeking foreigners to marry at great risk.

Also there are no organized scams going on in Asia that I'm aware of.

This is why I like the old-fashioned method of writing letters. It is way harder for scammers to do their thing. Too time consuming and costly.


Analyzing letters over a peroid of time is indeed the most cost effective way to find out the if one's potential husband or wife is sincere. IMBRA blocks USA citizen's right to privacy and the right to carefully and cautiously choose a life long foreign wife or husband.

Now when it comes to the internet and email, however, I realize it is VERY convenient. Impersonal but convenient. You can contact your loved one cheaply and quickly. However guys have to keep in mind that it is also very convenient for scammers out there. You may think you are "talking" to someone named Natasha in Russia but in reality you may talking to a guy named Boris who will soon be asking you to send money to his paypal account for more photos to be taken to send you, etc. Not only that but Boris may have 1,000 potential suckers on his email list. Of course there are plenty of female scammers out there too.

However I realize that there may be bad stuff going on in Russia but I'm sure the majority of the women, just like regular people everywhere, are nice ladies and are sincere and honest.

AWS is right though that men just need to use common sense. This alone would eliminate enough scams to end them.


One can still study sentence and paragraph structure in typed letters to determine personality traits of it's author or authors. With IMBR the safety and well being of USA citizens is immediately compromised as personal information must be given without being able to attempt to determine the personally traits of the foreigner one wishes to communicate with. The IMBRA law, which mandates a lack of insight, illegally throws caution to the wind and poses a national security risk to USA citizens in my opinion.

What I have noticed with the pro-IMBRA crowd is that their reading comprehension levels are at about the third grade level while the hardcore feminists generally have first grade level reading comprehension skills. IMBRA is a short sited civil rights violation created and implemented by non-thinkers and by people who are determined to make the USA a dangerous place by requiring personal information be shared to untrusted foreigners.

Perhaps I should repeat it. IF A WOMAN ASKS FOR MONEY, END IT RIGHT THEN!
-------------------------------------------

This is why it is nice using the services of a agency where you can actually talk to them and get advice, which if they have been around for a decent length of time, they will have plenty of. These places actually care about their female and male members and want the best for them as opposed to places that only want your money. It is called honesty and integrity and no "agency certification" by some place trying to make an extra buck is necessary. The female and male members do the certifying, take my word for it.
--------------------------------------------


When an FW starts asking for money it's red flag and will lead to other red flags. If one is marrying for love and companionship then money is not needed.

Also never forget the motive behind bogus entities like Tahirih Justice Center who claim to be concerned about "protecting" these women.

That is complete and utter BS! Their main goals are to STOP these women from coming here and marrying American men and to MAKE MONEY, NOT necessarly in that order.

The more confusion they can add into the mix, like making the men suspect the women are frauds, making the women think the men are all abusive, making ludicrous "rules" for the agencies and their clients, the more they acheive these goals.



The TJC uses paid FW "models" at their functions. As VA noted earlier. Some of these paid FW "models" ran away in horror and refused to do some of the things the TJC asked them to do. Do you see the connection with the million dollar grant the TJC received and the model exemption in IMBRA? Do you wonder what "back room deals" between wealthy or powerful power brokers and paid foreign "models are? Again look at the behavior of Miss USA and Miss Teen USA both of which so far have kept their high paid jobs. The power elite are still abusing and taking advantage of women. Remember when Donald Trump said he might use his pretty female friends to steal Rosie's girlfriend away from her? Now look at the model exemption clause in IMBRA. Then look at how TJC uses foreign "models" at their grant paid for functions. See the pattern forming here?

Feminists have no desire to help good American men or to help any woman who is virtuous. IMBRA rewards bad behavior from foreigners and coddles the power elite who are corrupt. The FW that ran away from one TJC function because the TJC wanted them acting like Miss USA did before she is scheduled to enter rehab. IMBRA does not adversely effect wealthy CEOs or the TJC  if they choose to pay foreign "models" to do their dirty work.

You want to know who the REAL golddiggers and frauds are out there? It is the feminist groups who CON politicians and donors into believing there is a problem with false "facts and stats" combined with hysteria and enough nagging to get the people controlling the money to give it to them in order to get them off their backs!

THERE IS 1,000 TIMES MORE FRAUD AND ABUSE GOING ON WITH THESE "WOMEN'S PROTECTION" FEMINIST GROUPS OUT THERE IN ONE DAY THAN COULD EVER BE DONE WITH FOREIGN WOMEN IN A CENTURY!

THESE feminist groups are the ones who should be investigated and regulated, NOT regular men and women who are simply seeking friendship and a potential meaningfull relationship with (gasp) someone from another country that may not be feminized by women's groups with an agenda of their own political correctness!

You reporters out there! You want a REAL story? Try investigating Tahirih Justice Center and their FRAUDULENT ACTIVITIES! THAT is where the REAL criminal action is happening!


Crime and drug abuse are part of the feminist movement and supporters of IMBRA in my opinion. Look at the methods sadists use to recruit and carry on their businesses. Then look at the feminist movement. After that read about the battle Satan wages to bring about the death of good?Godly people here on earth. It will all make sense after you do that. Look very closely at the model exception in IMBRA and then look at what is on the news today regarding the behavior of models and beauty pageant winners.

Ok, back to the bat cave for me. Usually I just do admin and don't type very long posts but I had to get this off my chest. I feel better now plus I did not have to give anyone my home address like IMBRA would have required to make this post.


Title: Pbs Television Talk Show "debate" On Imbra: Only Women On Panel
Post by: VeteransAbroad on December 24, 2006, 08:05:56 AM
The PBS Google video needs to be saved on everyone's hard drive and the link needs to be on the front page of ODR in my opinion.

Can someone please find out what motion the TJC made yesterday in the EC trial?


Title: Pbs Television Talk Show "debate" On Imbra: Only Women On Panel
Post by: frank johnson on December 24, 2006, 09:50:09 AM
Thanks again AWS and ALL of you other PATRIOTS out there for your time and thoughts and ideas.

I love Christmas like most NON-BAHAIS and I truly feel EVERY post is a gift from that person. The best part is that they are the "gifts that keep on giving" because we are fortunate enough to get some everyday and be able to go back and re-read them when we desire.

Some post frequently. Some post ocassionaly. Some post rarely. Excluding my own posts (I know there can be mixed feelings at times about them but I do speak from my heart, knowledge and imagination and extremely funny/bad/warped (?) sense of humor), I feel EVERY post by EVERY one of you guys (and ocassional girl) is a gift and (speaking only for myself) I consider them to be a special gift from that person.

There is not a person here who is not busy in one way or another and to take the time and thought to make a post is a valuable contribution for what we believe in. We ALL love our country. We all love women. We all do NOT want to harm women nor see them harmed. We all love our wives and girlfriends. We all love freedom and civil liberties or we wouldn't be here. We all want to pursue our lives, liberty and happiness. We all believe friendship and love with the opposite sex is OUR (and their) business, NOT the government's and especially not radical feminists!

I'm going to start correcting myself on this last "label" as Veteran and others have said, it is the RADICAL feminists that rub everyone the wrong way.

A lot of women would consider themselves to be feminists. The overwhelming majority of these would probably be offended if someone thought they were RADICAL feminists. After all the word "radical" has certain conotations to it, not necessarily good. The pro-IMBRA women are RADICAL feminists. They may claim to be only "regular" feminists, but they are NOT!

"Normal" feminism is about being equal, specifically with men of course. I have no problem with that as I feel we ALL are equal, especially in the eyes of God or whoever you may or may not believe in.

RADICAL feminism is NOT about being equal. It is ALL about being superior and making men subservient to them.

I think most women are happy to be equal, just like most men are.

It is a small minority of women who want to lead men around on leashes. They know who they are. We know who they are. THESE are the ones we are posting about and are fighting against their agendas.

Tahirih Justice Center is unique among RADICAL feminist groups because unlike the other RADICAL or "normal" feminists, they have a RADICAL religious agenda that drives them. In my eyes this makes them VERY dangerous as they want not only to make men subservient to them, but they also want to change EVERY man, woman and child in the societies around the world to be molded into THEIR vision of RADICAL feminist "harmony."

Tahirih Justice Center probably were going to bitch to get another case going on EC on Christmas Day as I imagine this is just "Monday" to them and they thought Judge Cooper and gang would be working. I wonder which day is special to them? What is Tahirih's birthday?

They are RADICAL feminists and religious EXTREMISTS with a mission and agenda and it is not a pleasant one if you are not "with them." If their religion is as tolerant as their civil actions, I think we know what to expect from them.

They started out saving African women from female genital multulation (a noble deed and intentionally so) to seem like they were on a noble cause. After some power and money, they came up with IMBRA. With yet MORE money and power PLUS a religious agenda......well I have a very vivid imagination so I can only imagine what treats they have in store for the NEAR future if they are not reined in NOW.

Some could never have forseen something as un-American and ridiculous as IMBRA actually passing. Try and use your imagination and see if you can think of things that make IMBRA look like  a harmless little un-noticed (intentionally) law. You KNOW they are not going to stop there. They will NEVER stop unless THEY are stopped. We are not just talking about American men and foreign women. That was only a test of they could get away with! We are talking REAL SERIOUS STUFF here for EVERYBODY, including "normal" feminists!


Title: Pbs Television Talk Show "debate" On Imbra: Only Women On Panel
Post by: VeteransAbroad on January 04, 2007, 08:21:05 AM
This entire thread, or at least the link to the PBS "Debate" on IMBRA, should be the first thing people see when they come to ODR, right next to the Donate button. :-)


Title: Pbs Television Talk Show "debate" On Imbra: Only Women On Panel
Post by: VeteransAbroad on January 05, 2007, 05:11:30 AM
In the first sentence, Bonnie describes IMBRA as providing the US government with the identities of the men who date foreign women.

IS THIS TRUE? Does IMBRA give the US government a way around habeus corpus authorizing and insisting that all business transactions with a website can be investigated in the same way that Muslims can be investigated for what library materials they've taken out?

And the ACLU has NOTHING to say about this? The EFF has NOTHING to say?



Title: Pbs Television Talk Show "debate" On Imbra: Only Women On Panel
Post by: tristan on January 05, 2007, 01:27:07 PM
Here is my email of two weeks ago to the program that broadcast Bonnie Erbe's "debate" and their response.  What is surprising by their response is not that it is inconsequential, but that they addressed me as Mr. Oliver.    

Dear Mr. Oliver,
Thank you for your comments on our webcast.  We always love hearing from our viewers.  Please keep watching and letting us know what you think.
 
To The Contrary

Tristan Laurent <onlinedatingrights@yahoo.com> wrote:
TTC Extra:
 
I viewed a video of your October 20, 2006 production on "Mail Order Brides" with hostess Bonnie Erbe.
 
I was shocked at the blatant sexist, misandrist, racist, xenophobic and ethnocentric attitudes displayed by Ms. Erbe and the guests.
 
Ms. Erbe begins the show by stating that violence in international marriages is up significantly.  The first guest to speak says she is not surprised that there is a spike in violence.  Ms. Erbe and others suggest that anectodal evidence shows this problem is out of control.
 
And then, Ms. Erbe states that SHE HASN'T SEEN ANY STATISTICS ON VIOLENCE IN SUCH RELATIONSHIPS.  Of course, I do not believe this is true.  I believe that Ms. Erbe knows well that statistics, including statistics gathered by the INS, show that violence in such relationships is LOWER than violence in relationships between American men and American women.
 
Other guests stated that such women are subservient, have less education and no career prospects.  There are no statistics showing any of this and in any event these statements are highly disparaging to the foreign women.  But from the tenor and tone of the conversation it is clear that Ms. Erbe and your female guests INTEND to disparage these foreign women as the women on your show believe that such foreign women are inferior to American women.
 
In what is one of the worst examples of a smear, one woman guest implies that meeting a woman on the internet who happens to be from another country may be linked to sex trafficking.  
 
I noted that your To the Contrary series is intended to be about women's issues.  Who would ever have thought that a television production in 2006 hosted by women who consider themselves enlightened would be filled with false facts, innuendo and smears based on race and gender due to complete and utter ignorance.
 
You should visit our website to educate yourselves.  It is online-dating-rights.com.  Then, you should invite two of our men to debate two of your women on this issue.  It would be a great experience for your viewers, but you will never do it because the truth about this issue and about the law is simply unacceptable for your management.
 
Tristan Laurent


Title: Re: Pbs Television Talk Show "debate" On Imbra: Only Women On Panel
Post by: VeteransAbroad on January 22, 2007, 10:04:28 AM
For those people who have the forum configured so the last post is the first post they see, here is what the thread is about:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8282596400667044072&q=mail+order+brides&hl=en

You have to have a strong stomach to watch this.


Title: Re: Pbs Television Talk Show "debate" On Imbra: Only Women On Panel
Post by: VeteransAbroad on January 24, 2007, 11:54:10 AM
Anyone watching this video might be reminded of a pack of wolves panicking that all the rabbits and small game are leaving the forest. thanx aws 8)